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View Full Version : Trying to improve my play from the blinds...a couple hands.


cold_cash
11-15-2003, 06:09 AM
Here are a couple hands from my session earlier tonight. I've been struggling with my play out of the blinds and these two hands really caught my attention because in each hand the pot was raised pre-flop by a jerk who was to my immediate left.

After Hand #1 he was giving me grief about calling his pre-flop raise. After Hand #2 he was really steamed and gave me more than a couple choice words for the same reason.

I'm most interested in what everybody thinks of me calling a raise with these hands, but advice on every street after that would be great also. Here goes:

Hand 1
Party Poker 1/2, 9 handed
I'm in the BB with Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG (jerk) raises, MP calls, CO (poster) calls, button and small blind fold, I call.

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, UTG bets, MP calls, CO calls, I call.

Turn: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, UTG bets, MP calls, CO calls, I check-raise, UTG folds, MP and CO call.

River: 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet, MP folds, CO calls. My hand is good.

It was right after this the berating of my play began. The very next orbit when I'm in the BB comes....

Hand 2

I'm holding Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

UTG (jerk) raises, MP calls, CO calls, button calls, I call.

Flop: T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check, UTG bets, MP folds, CO calls, button calls, I call.

Turn: A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I check, UTG bets, CO folds, button calls, I check-raise, UTG calls, button calls.

River: 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet, UTG calls, button folds. My hand is good.

The hand history said UTG had QQ. He cussed me out after this one reallllly good. I told him that I was sorry and that I'd never played before and he got up and left shortly after.

Was my calling his raises a bad idea in these spots? They both seemed pretty pretty loose, but I don't know exactly how bad they were. Also, the UTG raiser hadn't been at the table for too long, so I wasn't too sure about which hands he'd raise with (which proabably makes my calls that much worse). Thanks.

lil'
11-15-2003, 10:40 AM
Hand 1 - 3 Handed, out of position and you are getting 5:1 on your call. That was a pretty loose call. The fact that it's suited doesn't change the fact that your hand is probably dominated. Having said that, we've seen people call with worse, and your opponent should know that people routinely call with suited junk all the time from the BB.

Hand 2 - This call isn't as loose as the first one, since the pot is so big. Since it's a low limit game you figure to get paid off well if you make your hand.

You missed a check-raise on the flop.

lunchmeat
11-15-2003, 11:57 AM
Hand 1) PF good call, you're getting 7 1/2: 1 to call, and the chance of flopping a fulsh draw are a little more than 8: 1, with implied odds this is fine. On the flop, I'd bet out to see where I'm at. If the jerk raises you can be pretty sure he has you beat. The turn check/raise was nice considering how you played the flop. Good bet on the river.

Hand 2) PF You're getting 9 1/2: 1 on the flush draw, good call. Great flop, you have 9 clean outs for sure, and probably 6 more with the straight draw. Ignoring the straight draw, it is 1.8: 1 that you'll make the flush. So you actually want to check/raise here. Why? With 3 opponents calling on the flop you are getting 3:1 on your money for a 1.8: 1 shot at making the flush. Over the long run a raise here is a big time money maker. Considering how you played the flop, you played the rest of the hand nicely.

lil'
11-15-2003, 12:07 PM
Hand 1 - Sorry cash, I misread the pre-flop action in hand 1.

rkiray
11-15-2003, 12:20 PM
I'd call in the first hand but I would not be real happy about it. You have possibilities for both flush and straight. I'd bet out on the flop. If raised, I call and then check/fold the turn unless I improved.

Hand 2 : I usually hate Qxs in the big blind. But I guess you have enough callers to get away with it. You definitely arn't going anywhere after that flop. I think you should bet the flop and check raise the turn, or vice versa.

GuyOnTilt
11-15-2003, 12:47 PM
I personally don't make either of those calls preflop. However, I don't see too much wrong with deciding to play them.

Hand 1: You're out of position with a hand that is likely to be dominated, which is why I avoid it. I routinely make folds like this and used the chips I saved for better situations in better position. The pot odds you're getting are pretty good to call for your drawing hand though, so it's not a bad call.

Hand 2: Again, I choose to muck here. I'm out of position to play if I flop top pair, and I'm out of position to maximize if I flop my flush draw. However, you're getting very good pot odds on your call here, so calling is fine. I personally save my chips here for better situations in better position.

Neither call was horrible, but neither of them was mandatory. If you want to play those hands, then go ahead; there's nothing incorrect about it. But feel free to muck both and wait for better opportunities as well. Hold'em in a very positional game, and choosing not to play marginal hands out of position can never be wrong.

GoT

Sarge85
11-15-2003, 03:14 PM
Depending on the texture of the game, and your own discipline to realease these hands if you don't get a good flop, I think you're probably good to play them against one raise. A lot will depend on who's doing the raising.

On hand #2 - I would either lead out the betting, or check-raise on the flop.

Nice Hands

cold_cash
11-15-2003, 03:25 PM
The flop hit me so hard on hand #2 that I was thinking it would be best to try and trap the 2 callers in the middle for extra big bets with a check-raise on the turn, rather than the flop.

I have a hard time with the concept of isolating my opponents. (The problem being mainly that I don't know when to do it.) It seemed to me like this was a good hand (at least after the flop) to be playing against a lot of opponents, and I didn't think I could get in a check-raise on both the flop and the turn, so I waited. If UTG had bet out on the flop and both the middle callers folded, I might have raised right then, but as it was, I didn't want the the middle callers faced with calling 2 bets cold as opposed to calling one, being raised, then having to call another.

I hope this made sense. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif How's my thinking with all this?

11-15-2003, 04:11 PM
I think I'd call the first one because you're getting pretty good odds on the call, and have a decent chance of flopping a hand.

The second one is getting big pot odds to call, but there aren't too many flops I could be confident on. I'm not exactly sure how to work it out, but I'd estimate that the "effective" odds you want here are much higher than typical since there aren't too many flops where this hand is a favorite. And even a good flop, like a diamond flush draw- does not draw to the nuts. A set is outkicked, and two pair is very fragile. In my book it seems to me like a fairly even money call here, but I do know two things about myself. 1. I'm probably going to have trouble moving foward if a halfway decent flop comes, and end up losing money post-flop. 2. I don't like the high variance that comes with playing marginal plays like this. I usually play B&M so I've only got a handful of chips infront of me at any given time.

But UTG should be complaining more to all the players who coldcalled his raise. If it weren't for them, you'd have an easy fold. Besides, they're the ones playing bad pre-flop, not you.