I call yer bluff

[Ed Miller]

15-30 at the Bellagio. Very good game. Archetypic weak-tight player limps from MP. I raise on the button with the J /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif. Loose, habitual bluffer who claims to be a pot limit player calls from the small blind. He seems to be annoyed that his bets don't have as much leverage in limit poker. 3-handed for two bets.

Flop is T /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB bets. MP calls and I call.

Turn is 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB bets. MP calls and I call.

River is 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB bets. MP calls and I call.

[Ulysses]

I would raise somewhere, 'cause it's hard to get three of a kind.

[Ed Miller]

Where would you raise? I'm not very afraid of a ten.

[Vehn]

If you're unafraid of a ten then the turn obviously.

[andyfox]

Yeah, but it's a lot easier when they give you two of the three on the board.

I would raise because I want to minimize anyone drawing out on me because a quuen, king or ace on the turn or river could give someone a higher pair than my jacks.

[Rick Nebiolo]

You should have titled this post "I Overcall Your Bluff" /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anyway, with this board the MP weak tight flop caller concerns me as much as the flop bettor. I think you should consider finding out if the ten is out be raising here. The problem is that a tough lead bettor can reraise without the ten, knowing you probably don't have one and will probably back off.

BTW, if MP had raised on the turn, do you fold?

~ Rick

[elindauer]

Aren't you afraid of aces, kings, and queens? I agree with most posters... you need to raise. I'd recommend raising the flop. Let's get rid of that weak tight player holding overcards ASAP.

[slavic]

Mr SB sure does look like a pocker pair or AK, or K4s. The question is what does mp have? Weak tight says a decent ace, a middle pair, maybe a monster that he doesn't want to raise?

It's hard for me to look at two players and decide the best strategy is to just call but I think you have a live one betting into you and I'd hate to see that stop. There is just some sort of nice auora about getting 2 to 1 on every bet.

[Ed Miller]

SB was a loose player, so he could have called my raise with all sorts of hands. He was also a habitual bluffer, so he would bet a ragged flop like this with any hand; he is likely to continue betting as long as he isn't raised.

MP was VERY weak-tight. When he calls the flop bet, he has to have a small/medium pocket pair, A4s, or perhaps a ten. He would not call with overcards on a paired board like this. He would not raise the flop or turn as a bluff (or with just a small pair) even if I show weakness by just calling. So if he raises the turn, he has JJ beaten without a doubt. He will also fold a small pair if I breathe the wrong way on the pot. He will continue to call to the river as long as I don't raise, though. In fact, he's only calling at all because SB has bluffed him (and shown) several times already.

So I figured that SB was likely drawing to at most three outs (I had no reason at all to put him on AK, AQ, or KQ). MP was likely drawing to two outs. So I saw no reason to raise at any point. I'm confident that my opponents will both fold as soon as I raise, and I think I will get one bet on each street from them if I don't raise. Since they are drawing to three and two outs respectively, I'd prefer to show them a river card and have them both put in that last bet.

SB showed KJo and MP showed 66 and I took it down.

[Gabe]

Without the MP, heads-up, I like your play. With him in, there maybe too many outs against you to give cheap cards. I like raising the flop. Often the SB, being aggressive, will reraise with a small pair and the weak tight player in MP will fold or raise. However, since you just called the flop, the SB bets the turn and the MP calls, I tend to think they both have underpairs. I would consider raising the river.

I you had had AA or KK, I think the way you played it would be the way to go.

[Ed Miller]

I think maybe I should have raised the river as well. I didn't because frankly, I didn't expect to be called in either place, and once in a while I have to pay off a 3-bet.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi major:

There's a good chance I raise the turn. With a pair of jacks you don't want an overcard to fall. Since there's a pretty good chance you have the best hand, it's worth risking that raise if you think you might get one or both of them to fold since the pot is now fairly large.

By the way, with a pair of kings I would not be as inclined to make this raise. Do you see the difference?

Best wishes,
Mason

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but it's a lot easier when they give you two of the three on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know what, Andy? You're a smart-ass and I hate you. JA Sucker and I are planning a trip to LA. When we get down there, I will mess you up the way I do Tommy. You see that thread where I 3-bet him pre-flop w/ J9s? Yeah, I know you can't stand the heat. Chumps.

[ QUOTE ]
I would raise because I want to minimize anyone drawing out on me because a quuen, king or ace on the turn or river could give someone a higher pair than my jacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I would think and why I would raise. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Ulysses]

If I decided not to raise the turn, I'd raise the river once MP (the guy who sounds more likely to possibly have a Ten) just calls the turn. But I'd raise the turn. If they want to pay another bet drawing thin, great. If they want to give me the pot right there, that's fine too.

[Tommy Angelo]

I think you played it great except for maybe one thing. On the turn, I think the correctness of your call is determined largely by what goes through your mind while doing it. If it had been something like the paragraph below, then this would have been a fine performance with a 6.0 landing.

I will, now, while calling the turn, and then while the dealer is burning and turning, and then while my opponents choose and enact their river actions, I will focus all of my attention on my own river decision: to raise or not. I'll be entering the mind of the small blind now, and looking around in there, and there's still plenty of time to do so. Plenty of information yet to come. And when it gets to me, facing one bet on the river, I will know if the small blind has a ten or not, because I have willfully made that my mission, here and now, on the turn.


Tommy

[Gabe]

SB is weak, but not tight. That he would call the turn with a hand like that makes it more dangerous to not take steps to get him to fold.

[Ed Miller]

You guys have me convinced to raise the turn.

[mike l.]

"By the way, with a pair of kings I would not be as inclined to make this raise. Do you see the difference?"

mason youve been asking for about 10 years now and everyone sees the difference, it's as plain as day. so you dont need to ask anymore.

[daryn]

i would think you wouldn't raise kings because if people are hanging around with Q's and J's you would want them to hit and pay you.. but if the guy has a ten already then you're beat and you save money.. you still fear people playing lone aces though, is this close to correct?

[mike l.]

oh well i guess mason does need to keep asking. it's in hpfap. with kings he doesnt have to be as worried about an overcard coming on the river that beats him. with jacks he has to be more concerned with protecting/saving his pot if in fact his hand is good, by trying to fold out people with something like AQ.

[J_V]

this post must be in mason's saved documents...he's asked it a 100 times.

[glen]

LOL! I was thinking the same thing. I just think it's funny he's asking majorkong in particular, who probably, like most of us, has seen this question a few hundred times. Still, it's worth mentioning, as many probably don't see the difference. . .

[Ed Miller]

I didn't raise because I thought it was very unlikely that two overcards to my jacks were out. But I could have been wrong... and it wouldn't have been bad just to take the pot on the turn.