its official, israel runs america

[brad]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1061381,00.html

Israel deploys nuclear arms in submarines

Peter Beaumont in London and Conal Urquhart in Jerusalem
Sunday October 12, 2003
The Observer

Israeli and American officials have admitted collaborating to deploy US-supplied Harpoon cruise missiles armed with nuclear warheads in Israel's fleet of Dolphin-class submarines, giving the Middle East's only nuclear power the ability to strike at any of its Arab neighbours.
The unprecedented disclosure came as Israel announced that states 'harbouring terrorists' are legitimate targets, responding to Syria's declaration of its right to self-defence should Israel bomb its territory again.

According to Israeli and Bush administration officials interviewed by the Los Angeles Times, the sea-launch capability gives Israel the ability to target Iran more easily should the Iranians develop their own nuclear weapons.

Although it has been long suspected that Israel bought three German diesel-electric submarines with the specific aim of arming them with nuclear cruise missiles, the admission that the two countries had collaborated in arming the fleet with a nuclear-capable weapons system is significant at a time of growing crisis between Israel and its neighbours.

According to the paper, the disclosure by two US officials is designed to discourage Israel's enemies from against launching an attack amid rapidly escalating tensions in the region following a raid by Israeli jets on an alleged terrorist training camp near the Syrian capital, Damascus.

In a clear echo of the Bush doctrine of pre-emption, the Foreign Ministry's senior spokesman, Gideon Meir, insisted: 'Israel views every state that is harbouring terrorist organisations and the leaders of those terrorist organisations who are attacking innocent citizens of the state of Israel as legitimate targets out of self defence.'

The disclosure, is certain to complicate UN-led efforts to persuade Iran to make a full disclosure of its nuclear programme. It will also complicate the Bush administration's efforts to reach out to moderate Arab states when they are pressing for an equal disclosure of Israel's nuclear weapons programme.

Although Israel has long been known to possess nuclear weapons, in the past it has abided by a deal struck with President Richard Nixon in 1969 that it would maintain 'ambiguity' about its retention of weapons in exchange for the US turning a blind eye. According to reliable estimates, Israel has around 200 nuclear warheads.

It acquired the three Dolphin class submarines, which can remain at sea for a month, in the late Nineties. They are equipped with six torpedo tubes suitable for the 21-inch torpedoes that are normally used on most submarines.

It had been understood they would carry a version of the 'Popeye Turbo' cruise missiles being developed by Rafael Armament Development Authority of Israel.

Israel's seaborne nuclear doctrine is designed to place one submarine in the Persian Gulf, the other in the Mediterranean, with a third on standby. Secret test launches of the cruise missile systems were understood to have been undertaken in May 2000 when Israel carried out tests in the Indian Ocean.

'We tolerate nuclear weapons in Israel for the same reason we tolerate them in Britain and France,' one of the LA Times' sources told the paper. 'We don't regard Israel as a threat.'

Despite the anonymity of the source, the sentiment is almost identical to that of the US Under Secretary of State for Arms Control, John Bolton, who told British journalists last week that America was not interested in taking Israel to task for its continuing development of nuclear weapons because it was not a 'threat' to the United States.

Even if Bolton was not one of the sources for the story, his comments, coming on top of that of the two other sources, suggest the degree to which senior members of the Bush administration can now not even be bothered to hide America's assistance and encouragement for Israel's nuclear programme.

[andyfox]

And how does this show that Israel runs America?

[Gamblor]

LOL

Assuming this is true, what does that have to say about you all, if 5 million people 10,000 km away are controlling 250 million of you??

[brad]

how else can get nukes from US? (and direct, no middleman needed anymore)

[daryn]

i don't know if this forum is the right place to say this... actually i know it's not.. but here goes!

it seems like the creation of israel was a bad thing as far as world events go. the US should stop giving israel all sorts of money and arms.. i mean, arabs don't hate america for no reason.

[brad]

wait till iran is nuked by israel (with US built nukes)

[Cyrus]

While it is a wild and foolish exaggeration to claim that "Israel runs America", it would be equally foolish to ignore the extremely disproportionate influence of political action committees on American foreign policy. The (infamous) Israeli lobby is truly extremely well-organised and wields serious power, not just in Washington, but across the spectrum of state and local politics. In other words, an aspiring politician in Oregon whose platform contains criticism of Israeli policy will have to face not just Oregonians who oppose his platform (as a whole), not just Jeiwsh-Americans in Oregon, but the whole Jewish-American political machine in the United States that has made a habit of swiftly kicking off-screen such "aspiring politicians"!


Nonetheless, the recent endorsement (it's an endorsement, for all practical purposes) of Israeli nuclear capability by the United States represents indeed a turning point in American foreign policy.

So far, the American position regarding Israeli nukes was something like "Don't ask, don't tell". Now (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1061381,00.html), it officially acknowledges and OKs Israeli nukes. Consequences:

(a) This harms the consistency of the very blueprint for American foreign policy ("For the 21st Century") which explicitly calls for actively stopping proliferation of nukes. The doctrine is now being changed to "We don't care if the country is friendly to us". Huh?? Whazzat? Never heard of a country changing regimes, pumpkin? Them nukes still be there, pumpkin.

(b) This hurts (worsens) the credibility of the United States in the eyes of both the Arab world, to the extent that the U.S. cares about Arab world attitudes, and the Europeans, ditto.

(c) This represents no gain at all in strategic terms for the United States. America has no formal defense treaty with Israel. Moreover, Israel has repeatedly stated and demonstrated that, in matters of its defense, it will act unilaterally, without consulting with the U.S. and even against American advice or interests. Essentially, this is like allowing any other maverick nation to possess nukes.

--Cyrus

[andyfox]

One makes deals, the same as any other country.

When you post a title like Isreal controls America, it brings to mind, to me at least, the old accusations of Jewish control of the country.

[Ray Zee]

i dont think israel will use nukes without our blessing. and by giving them more nuke power it puts pressure on the middle east to come to our ways. it also helps let us off the hook if we want iran or another place gone by letting israel do the dirty work and then sanction them a little.

[Dr Wogga]

....stupidly, I posted on "other gambling" instead of this page. BTW, although I've always thought your politics suck, I like a guy who loves "vag" as much as I do. A lot of fags on these pages - especially the anti-semite, pro left wing extremists on these pages - a lot of bone smugglers to be sure

[Boris]

I saw your post. almost pissed myself laughing. the girlfriend thought is was pretty funny also.

[Cyrus]

"I don't think Israel will use nukes without [America's]blessing."

Nukes are not actually intended to be used! This is a basic tenet of nuclear strategy. Nukes are there mostly for the intimidation. (Surely you are aware of this concept from live action at the poker tables.)

Allowing Israel to have and deploy nukes, and moreover officially recognizing Israel's exemption from the non-proliferation dogma, simply means providing Israel with more intimidation. Which, in turn, encourages Israeli intransigence. Which, then, renders the prospect for peace even more distant.

"It also helps let [the United States] off the hook if we want Iran or another place gone by letting Israel do the dirty work and then sanction them a little."

For Israel to actually use nuclear weapons, the country would have to be facing complete annihilation. This, we can say with certainty, is extremely unlikely to happen as long as "conventional" military weapons are used. And nuke-possessing nations, such as Iran or Pakistan, are unlikely to attack Israel with nukes! So, we cannot reasonably expect Israel to do America's "dirty work" to the extent of destroying Iran with nukes.

With "conventional" hits maybe, but with nukes, no.

(I trust the reasons are clear as to why not.)

[ACPlayer]

You are kidding about our blessing part of this post, right?

If you look at the times that the US suggested that Israel restrain itself vs the times that it actually has you will realize that this friendship is essentially one way. The only notable case where ISrael was restrained was in the 91 conflict where America was actively engaged. In the recent Intifada, American suggestions have regularly been brushed off.

It may be that they will do our dirty work (although why we need the cover of that is beyond me given the unilateralist foreign policy of this administration).

[brad]

'Allowing Israel to have and deploy nukes'

but theyve already had them deployed for decades.

[brad]

thx.

[brad]

actually im pretty sure its not israelis run US, its a bunch of powerful people run both countries (as well as some others)

[brad]

'One makes deals, the same as any other country.

When you post a title like Isreal controls America, it brings to mind, to me at least, the old accusations of Jewish control of the country.
'

fair enough. what has US gotten in return for its financing of israel and (until now) covert wmd arming of israel?

btw, i like people who go 'jews run the world'. i always agree with them and then let them in on a secret, that mao tsungs real name was lenny goldstein, from brookyln.

[Dr Wogga]

....if its "out there", its yours /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Dr Wogga]

....always glad to inject a little levity........ /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[brad]

what dont u like about my politics ?

[Rushmore]

Don't be such an objective observer, (read: "Anti-Semite,") which, we all know by watching television and films, is the same as being a "Hate Criminal," which is, in turn, the same thing as being Satan Himself.

Don't forget: Arabs don't hate the U.S. because of policy (because they're just cavemen, and don't know anything about politics and are just really mean and bad and have beards), they, ahem...

..."hate our Freedom."

Are people really this stupid? Seriously. Did they have a backroom meeting to come up with this line? And if so, did they REALLY say "You know what? That's perfect. Americans will definitely believe that the Arab world hates their freedom, so they strap bombs to themselves and blow themselves to pieces. The citizens of the United States of America ARE actually moronic enough to believe this thing which we have just agreed to tell them." ???????

How absurd. How ridiculous.

Oh wait. Never mind.

[Rushmore]

This is what is commonly known as a "strawman argument."

[Ray Zee]

we supply israel with 3 billion or so a year. they do what we want along the track as far as nukes. they do what they want as far as self-survival.
the u.s. uses them just as they use us.

[Cyrus]

"We supply Israel with 3 billion or so a year. [Israel does] what we want along the track as far as nukes [are concerned]."

Well, all Israel does is that it doesn't use them! Which is not such a big favor, come to think of it...


"The U.S. uses [Israel] just as they use us."

I'm with you --halfway! I agree that Israel uses the U.S., big time, too. But I do not know of any opportunity whereby Israel was "used" by America to advance American interests. (Only in minor cases, such as collection of intelligence abt Jordan or getting a double spy out of Russia. Small potatoes.) Nor do I know of any strategic advantage that Israel offers (or ever offered) to the United States. The country was not near the Communist-held region, either.

If anything, the presence alone of Israel, had destabilized the region. This is simply an objective, historical assessment. And American commitment to Israel, in its total and unqualified support of everything Israel does or wants, has turned almost all the countries in the region against the U.S. (Some folks suggest that Israel was used as "the policeman of America" in the region but this is absurd, on two counts : 1. A policeman that only uses a billyclub soon loses all credibility and Israel has zero diplomatic clout, it only bullies and attacks. 2. All Arab countries were always extremely anti-communist to begin with. Zero gain there. Perhaps even negative EV from pushing them to the embrace of the Soviet bear.)

So, where is the gain?? Where is the "use"? Exactly when and how was Israel of any use to the United States, as you suggest?

I'm looking at it from the strategic angle, not the moral one, you understand. The moral argument I've had up to here, all these years, and know it by heart, thanks.

--Cyrus

[Cyrus]

"Assuming this is true [and Israel runs America], what does that have to say about you all, if 5 million people 10,000 km away are controlling 250 million of you?? LOL"

Thanks. This is called "adding insult to injury".

Nice going.

[Cyrus]

I wish I was gay
That'd certainly make yer day

Not today -- I'm sorry to say
(Today, you are not even funny
And were I to come out an' play
You'd for sure get a hide on yer fanny)

I'd post more but, no, see, I'm lazy
Pretty please, go elsewhere an' sell crazy

[Gamblor]

Hey, if you guys really believe this thats okay with me

I think its hilarious, personally.

I'm more inclined to beleive it's the other way around.

Have you ever been to Israel?

[ACPlayer]

What does the US get from Israel for the 3billion plus? An ally that does exactly what for us?

Other than the one sided moral argument that is offered by children like Gamblor.

[Gamblor]

Exactly when and how was Israel of any use to the United States, as you suggest?

Perhaps you've never been to Israel (which should come as no surprise to anyone who's ever read any of your posts).

Estee Lauder, Intel, and AOL all are heavily invested there.

And nearly every major restaurant chain.

[Ray Zee]

well there are alot of gains from israel. one big one is that they are our eyes and ears over there. also their intelligence collecting is far superior to ours. and after the wmd thing it is all suspect, or lies for personal purposes.
but the major thing we get is that israel gets the blunt of the hatred of the middle east. when it could all come our way. so we supply them with money and they are on the front taking the energy away from those that would turn on us whenever they can. it sounds intangible but i believe the diversion of israel helps keep the storm down. and it makes those over there more fearful of the west if they are facing a combatant that is close by. of course the screwballs will find a way to make us miserable no matter what.

the biggest reason we give israel money is that much of our banking system and many industries like hollywood are run by jewish interests. its always all about money and power.

[Cyrus]

"There are alot of gains [for the U.S.] from Israel. One big one is that they are our eyes and ears over there."

American high intelligence inside Arab countries has been as good as the Israelis'. Why would you think that an Israeli would be able to infiltrate the high echelons of power in an Arab country better than an American? In low level intelligence (the "street level"), yes, they are way ahead --but this is intelligence for tactical purposes; not much use to the USA.

"[Israeli] intelligence collecting is far superior to ours."

No, it's not. They may stand a chance in the analyzing dept but not in the collecting. I give you NSA and rest my case. (You could argue that the U.S. is passing along to Israel every little bit of info it collects and that Israelis then might analyze it better than Americans. But then, American intel --becomes--> Israeli intel, so there's no point. And are you sure that Israel shares equally and freely with the U.S.?? Maybe that "intelligence partnership" is really a subservient, one-way relationship. Just maybe (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1068697368420&p=1008596981749) .)

"The major thing we get is that Israel gets the blunt of the hatred of the Middle East."

I'm sorry but this is putting the cart before the horse! There would be NO hatred towards America if it wasn't for Israel, in the first place! When I am the teacher and I force you to sit the whole year next to the most obnoxious bully of a student ever and to put up with his antics, then you might hate that student and "focus your energy" on him but you will also hate my guts.

"The biggest reason we give Israel money is that much of our banking system and many industries like Hollywood are run by Jewish interests. It's always all about money and power."

Although the "Jewish interests" bit is an exaggeration, I submit (for the umpteenth time) that American generosity to Israel would be impossible without the extremely disproportionate power that Jewish-American PACs wield in American politics, local and national.

So, yes, it's about money & power, always. What else?

--Cyrus

[Cyrus]

"Exactly when and how was Israel of any use to the United States? Estee Lauder, Intel, and AOL all are heavily invested there!"

Once more, you are doing more harm to your cause by posting than by restraining yourself. Why would all those companies not invest in any country that would be there instead of Israel? (Not to mention that one dollar invested in Israel means a hundred dollars of investment opportunities missed in the Arab world, as things stand.) Why would American businesses not invest equally or more in Israel, if Israel was a different, ethnic-blind country instead of a Jews-only country? And how can any sane man claim that a country like Saudi Arabia is of less use to America than Israel? There's just no comparison.

The reason you try to fuzzy up the picture is because the moral argument for Israel has bankrupted a long time ago and you know it. All that remains is the smokescreen of the "strategic use" argument. Hah.

One more thing and you brought it upon yourself : American businesses have been investing in various parts of the world. If we were to judge how a country serves American strategic interests by the measure of how much money American business invests there, that would make countries like China far more important strategically to the U.S. than Israel. (Hmmm, wait...)

"Perhaps you've never been to Israel."

Yeah, I know. There was another fellow who claimed no one should talk about Vietnam if he hadn't fought there either, or something. Post haste, then, and ipso facto, I demand forthwith that you cease & desist from referring to any event that happened before you were born. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

(But you can talk about events since yesterday.)

[Gamblor]

Cause misguided fools who weigh their moral structure and don't look at facts.


These folks didn't attack Israeli embassies. You'd have to be blind (or as dense as Virus) not to notice the religious discrimination, and realize this is no political statement.

Three detained in Turkish Blasts (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/16/turkey.explosion/index.html)

Paris Arson Attack Burns Jewish School (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/16/international/europe/16PARI.html?ex=1069563600&en=b92fd86c1d71753c& amp;ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE)

[Cyrus]

I will take this opportunity to condemn without qualification and without the slightest hesitation the murderous and barbaric bombing of the Istanbul synagogue.

Analysis of Israeli policy and its faults or reminders of Israelis' own atrocities have no place in the discussion right now. May the murderers be all apprehended and be granted not the slightest clemency from the Turkish courts.

[Gamblor]

Unfortunately, despite my misgivings concerning your position on Israeli politics, I must point out that not as many people are as rational or educated as you are.

This is, in my opinion, why Israel must remain for the Jews. Your critique of Israeli politics notwithstanding, a significant number of critics do not distinguish between Israel and Jews.

As such, a state with a Jewish majority is necessary and vital. Whether or not they choose to go there, it must be an option. And the ones who have moved there will stop at nothing to ensure that the haven remains.