Do You Call The Flop Here?

[ML4L]

Relatively wild 10/20 5-handed table on Paradise. You just sat down, so you have no real read on any specific player...

You get 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif UTG and limp. Next player raises, button 3-bets. SB folds, BB calls. You call, original raiser calls. 12.5 SB in the pot. Flop comes:

A /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

BB checks, you check, original raiser checks, 3-bettor bets, BB folds.

Call or fold?

ML4L

[Soh]

Fold.
Don't forget that you can get check-raised.

Soh

[RollaJ]

Is this a riddle? If it is, the easy asnswer is you cant call the flop because you should have folded preflop.
If not, are you really thinking of chasing 2 runner runner draws?

[nykenny]

are you serious? in a 5 handed game u [ QUOTE ]
get 8 7 UTG and limp

[/ QUOTE ] . And after raised and reraised you [ QUOTE ]
call

[/ QUOTE ] ?

And you still not sure to fold on a flop missing you almost completely (i mean completely)?

fold utg. or fold to 2 bets cold. or fold on flop.


Kenny

[gaylord focker]

Cap it preflop, check raise the flop, and bet the turn in the dark.

[Ulysses]

If button has AdKd and the next two cards will be 5d and 6d, definitely call.

[andyfox]

I'm not a shorthanded expert, but I don't understand limping with 8-7 UT and then calling two more bets pre-flop. But that's not what you asked about.

If you're up against pocket jacks and A-Q, with one diamond in their hands, according to twodimes you'll win about 7% of the time. You're getting 13.5:1 to call, so it seems like it's not that bad to call. But you're only going to win if you can get to the river and hit twice. It's going to be expensive. The original raiser checked, but he may now check-raise, since he expected the pre-flop 3-bettor to bet the flop.

Let's take a best case scenario: the original raiser just calls the flop bet and it only costs you a big bet on the turn to see the river. Let's say you only continue to the river if you catch an 8, 7, 6, 5 or a diamond on the turn. And let's say you get paid off two bets on the turn and one bet on the river when you hit and don't pay off on the river when you have one pair and it's no good.

Turn is no help: 25/47 times you lose $10 = -$250
Turns helps and river doesn't: you lose $30 19/47 = -$570.
Turn helps and river helps 3/47 times: you win $205 each time = +$610.
Net: -$210

[Coilean: how does this look?]

Add in the fact that you don't know these players and the pre-flop action, plus the fact that it's shorthanded would indicate it's going to be more expensive than my best case secanrio, it sure doesn't look like a call is +EV.

[Tommy Angelo]

"check raise the flop, and bet the turn in the dark."

I like it!

[Diplomat]

This should be a no-brainer fold pre-flop when it comes back to you two more bets cold. Even calling utg is borderline (the first call), but should be pretty clear when betting comes back around.

This should be a no-brainer fold on the flop when a pre-flop three-bettor bets a rainbow board featuring an overcard in the playing region, and you have no draws (except backdoor draws). The only reasonable way you can win this hand is to hit it on the turn and river, and some of those apparent outs might be drawing dead. (two pair or trips outs) If I'm shooting at a backdoor draw, I'd like to convince myself that making one pair might be good enough. I don't think so here.

-Diplomat

[GuyOnTilt]

Man Looking 4 Love,

Don't limp with 87s UTG in a 5-handed game. Don't call 2 bets preflop with 87s. And certainly don't call a flop that completely missed you with 87s.

You need to tighten up your game HUGE.

GoT

[ML4L]

Hey everyone,

Well, I half-lied. I did play this hand, but I was NOT UTG. UTG was a relatively loose, moderately aggressive, typical Paradise short-handed player.

In the actual hand, I was the cutoff; I had A /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I REALLY liked that flop considering the mess that I had gotten myself into. It ended up that the turn was an offsuit 6 and the river was a 5, making the board A2456 and giving me a straight.

When the 5 hit on the river, UTG bet out. I raised, figuring that he hit two pair, maybe a set? Button coldcalled the two, and then UTG 3-bet. Well, the only hands that beat me were 73 and 87, so I decided to cap, figuring that UTG might have A3 as I did but was more likely to be overplaying a set or two pair. That's when UTG shows me 87. Sooted.

These are my questions:

1) Was it unwise to cap the river?

2) Was the flop call incorrect, and if so, by how much? The overwhelming response has been that it was VERY incorrect, which was my gut, but sometimes I make seemingly-loose calls to try to pick up a draw when:

- I can see the turn for one small bet
- someone seems to have a big hand
- the pot is already very large
- the draw figures to almost certainly be good if it hits

Clearly, not all of these criteria are met here. But, could any of you imagine making the call with that same holding if they were?

Andy, I feel bad that I put you to all of that math work... /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

ML4L

[andyfox]

Believe me, math is indeed work for me.

As for the river, when a guy cold-3-bets, it's pretty hard for me to cap with the 3rd nuts, although it's pretty hard to put anybody on 8-7 or 7-3 here. Ouch.

[Rick Nebiolo]

ML4L,

Without looking at the posts of the other ten 2+2er's who have responded so far I'm going to predict that at least seven of them mentioned you shouldn't be open limping with 87s in a five handed mid limit game.

Fold this type of hand before the flop until you get your bearings then raise or fold, never limp UTG five handed.

Given your initial call, fold for two more bets before the flop.

Given that you are in for the flop, fold to the three bettors bet. Even if he has an underpair to the top card on board, he won't lay it down since you didn't raise coming in. The pot isn't big enough to chase a running flush or two pair.

~ Rick

[Gabe]

Is question #2 asked from the perspective of the A3 or the 78? Question #1 seems to be asked from the perspective of the A3. I’m confused. It’s correct for the A3 with top pair, a gut shot, and a b/d flush draw. It’s incorrect for the 78 for Rick and Andy’s reasons, and is significantly wrong. This is due mainly to the money lost when the draw is picked up but not made.

[Kevin J]

If I am the pre-flop raiser, you absolutely should call flops of A24 holding an 87. Against anyone else however, you might want to consider folding.

[Coilean]

andy,

Looks good enough to me. If you finish it off by dividing by 47, you get your final EV per occurrence at about -$210/47 = -$4.47. And like you say, paying only $10 or $30 to see the river might be a bit optimistic, so the 87d could be even worse off.

[johnd]

I would fold here every time, frist raiser could be check raiseing and even if not u got nothing, in crazy games people play any Ace.