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ElSapo
11-14-2003, 11:58 AM
I’m huge fans of both these movies, and the books that spawned them, so I thought I’d post some thoughts on them considering the comments in another thread about them right now.

First off, if you like the movie(s) for the reasons most people here seem to enjoy them then I would highly recommend picking up both books. The Hustler was written in 1959, and the movie pretty accurately follows the book. I actually like the book better; for anyone who plays any game, gambles on anything, or simply aspires to greatness in any field, I think it’s an excellent book to read. Walter Tevis spends a lot of time talking about character and what it takes to win and succeed. I think there’s an entire philosophy in the book about success and winning.

A quote from The Hustler, Bert talking about winning -–

“Unless you’re in a game with a sap or a drunk, when you’re playing for the large money you play the man himself more than you ever play the game. Like in poker, in a really worth-while poker game, everybody knows how it stands with filling straights and flushes, with figuring the pot and counting the cards — I knew all that when I was fifteen. But the man who wins the games is the man who watches for the big money and pulls his guts together and gives himself character enough to stare down five other men and make the bet that nobody else would think of making and follow through with it. It’s not luck — there’s probably no such thing as luck, and if there is you can’t depend on it. All you can do is play the percentages, play your best game, and when the critical bet comes — in every game there is always a critical bet — you hold your stomach tight and push hard. That’s the clutch. And that’s where your born loser loses.”

It’s a great book. I can’t stress that enough.

The Color of Money, the sequel, was written much later, I think early 80s, and the movie does not reflect it at all. The book starts with a rematch of sorts, a televised series of matches between Eddie Felson and Minnesota Fats, before moving into Eddie’s return to playing pool and learning to play against a younger generation of players. But Jackie Gleason (who, coincidentally, did all his own shooting in The Hustler) died before the movie was made and so another script was put together.

Essentially, TCOM is a different book from movie, though both are excellent. The book is very much a continuation of The Hustler. But both, really, are about the same thing – character and people. The movies could have been about pool, poker, dominos or horseshoes. The truly great thing about the two movies, and the books, but maybe most of all The Hustler, is that the game of pool is almost irrelevant.

Paul Newman ended up getting the Oscar for Best Actor for TCOM, in what some saw as making up for snubbing him the first time around.

Greatest line from TCOM… “Is that metal on your jacket? [censored].”

It’s just the way he says it…

Read the books.

Tevis also write "The Queens Gambit," about competitive chess, and oddly some science fiction I haven't read. TQG was a pretty good book, but nothing like The Hustler or TCOM.

Just my thoughts...

JTG51
11-14-2003, 04:08 PM
I'm a big fan of both books and movies also. I think both books were clearly better than both movies (isn't that always the case tough?), and The Hustler was quite a bit better than The Color of Money.

I read somewhere that Tevis was bitterly disappointed with the way the movie for The Color of Money turned out, I don't blame him considering how different it is from the book. I never realized the reason was that Gleason died.

HDPM
11-14-2003, 05:40 PM
I thought Gleason was alive when COM came out. Maybe in bad health, but I thought he was still around. Anyway it would have been a way better movie if he was in it and it stayed close to the book.

I have seen both and read both. I think the Hustler is a much better film than COM, but COM is a better novel than hustler. I much prefer the cast from the hustler. Gleason, GC Scott, they were amazing. Jake La Motta as a bartender in a cameo. That was cool. The dude who played billiards in Kentucky. Much better cast IMO. I did like McCready as Grady Seasons in COM though.

ElSapo
11-14-2003, 05:55 PM
I thought Gleason was alive when COM came out. Maybe in bad health,

Oops, looks like you're right. He died the yer after... Health problems may have been the cause.

andyfox
11-14-2003, 05:58 PM
Great post.

I didn't like the movie TCOM too much. I'm not a Cruise fan and the combination of Cruise and Scorsese was, IMO, a bad one. All style and no substance.

Newman has given twenty better performances than he did in TCOM. No doubt the Academy gave it to him for his body of work. For example, just watched Road to Perdition again last night and he was marvelous in that.

I remember the real Minnesota Fats had a TV show where he played celebrities, oh, maybe 30 years ago or so (maybe longer). He didn't play very well at that stage of the game, was he ever world-class?

ElSapo
11-14-2003, 06:29 PM
I remember the real Minnesota Fats had a TV show where he played celebrities, oh, maybe 30 years ago or so (maybe longer). He didn't play very well at that stage of the game, was he ever world-class?

The Minnesota Fats on television and the one of Tevis' novels are two different people. Tevis says this in the opening, I believe, of TCOM.

Basically a moderately skilled hustler took the characters name and made himself famous. I don't remember Minnesota Fats' real name offhand, but essentially he claimed to be the person Tevis modeled the character from. Tevis denied this vehemently.

On a side note, Amarillo Slim's book has mention of this.

In any event, Minnesota Fats -- who died some years back -- was never what you'd call a world class player. Very entertaining, but not a great.

andyfox
11-14-2003, 06:33 PM
Rudolf Wanderone, died in 1996.

DougBrennan
11-14-2003, 06:33 PM
About 20 years ago ESPN had a series of shows with older pool players/hustlers playing each other in various round-robin formats. Mosconi and Fats were two of the participants out of eight, as I recall. The series was pretty entertaining as a few of these guys could really talk their way around the table. Much more fun than the men's pool they show now.

In any event, Fats routinely got his hat handed to him by the rest of the field, though you would have never known it by listening to him. Mosconi seemed to take particular delight in beating him, and I got the impression that there was no love lost between them. Mosconi may have been jealous of the publicity Fats had received from "The Hustler."

Regardless, "The Hustler" ranks as an all-time great American film, with some fabulous acting from those already mentioned, as well as Piper Laurie as Newman's girlfriend and Myron McCormick (sp?) as his pre-George C. Scott manager/backer.

ElSapo
11-14-2003, 06:35 PM
There you go...

Not the 'real one,' I suppose, since supposedly there wasn't one. But, if he didn't exist before then I suppose R.W. was as close as you can get.

(Huh, we have the same initials. Never noticed that before.)

Wanderone actually changed his name legally to Minnesota Fats. If nothing else, he was committed...

ElSapo
11-14-2003, 06:36 PM
Mosconi may have been jealous of the publicity Fats had received from "The Hustler."

Mosconi actually appears in The Hustler. He's the guy racking the balls for Fats and Fast Eddie. He served as the tech. director.

Briefly, once, I was kind of obsessed with the game.

andyfox
11-14-2003, 06:37 PM
I loved the way McCormick held his cigarette between his third and fourth fingers, instead of the more normal second and third fingers. A small thing, but a great touch.

I remember Fats talking about Mosconi on his own show about which I posted. He used to say you couldn't find Mosconi to get a match with him, things like that, so maybe that was what was behind Mosconi's joy in beating up on him.

The guys who play today do indeed seem to lack personality, but I'm not a pool player, and I am a poker player, and I'll watch the pool on ESPN twenty times before I'll watch the WPT once.

HDPM
11-14-2003, 07:45 PM
Mr. Wanderone was known as New York Fats for many years. He jumped on the popularity created by the Hustler and stole the name Minnesota Fats. He even sued the movie people saying they stole his name to get publicity. Wanderone was definitely not the inspiration for Minnesota Fats in the Hustler. New York Fats was a pretty good player whose best game was one pocket. He may have also made a big score playing 3 cushion billiards. There is a lot of debate as to how good he was. Some say he was only a very mediocre player by hustler standards, and made his money solely through hustling and dumping backers and such. Others claim he was pretty good and could simply gauge a game just right and with his line of BS lock it up. I think he probably was a decent player, but never one of the top players, and that he was a good gambler and con artist. So kind of a mix of things based on what I have heard of him. Mosconi far outclassed him as a player. When they did the ABC shows Mosconi had already had a stroke and was far from the days where he just crushed everybody playing straight pool. And he still crushed Fats. But he did like the money Fats made him with his line of BS, although Mosconi had no regard for him as a player.

Punker
11-15-2003, 08:39 AM
"Tevis also write "The Queens Gambit," about competitive chess, and oddly some science fiction I haven't read. TQG was a pretty good book, but nothing like The Hustler or TCOM."

The Queen's Gambit is actually a very entertaining book if you know more about competitive chess, although he uses an odd mix of a very few real characters and mostly fictional players.

ElSapo
11-15-2003, 12:06 PM
The Queen's Gambit is actually a very entertaining book if you know more about competitive chess,

Yeah... whatever happened to the idea of a 2+2 chess tournament? I was ready for that... TQG was ok, but not up to the, er... philosophical level I thought his other books hit. Something was missing. It almost seemed like an apology of sorts for some comments and attuitudes taken towards women in earlier books.

dogsballs
11-15-2003, 02:35 PM
Newman did get the oscar cos he'd missed out previously.

I remember seeing a show where Bob Hoskins said that he and James Woods, who were both also nominated, were drinking beforehand and toasting PN - they already knew it was going to him.

The dvd of the hustler has a documentary on it which claims minnesota fats changed his name to that after teh film - and he wasn't very good anyway. Great film about gambling and the psyches and personalities.

Bill Murphy
11-16-2003, 02:21 AM
PN was OK in Perdition, but God, did the rest of that movie suck. Neck and neck btwn that and In The Bedroom for most overrated movie of the last five years.

youtalkfunny
11-19-2003, 04:53 PM