Tell me the mistakes. PookerNoob, JT and the fish in between.

[Joe Tall]

I'm not going to tell the hands quite yet. However, I still think that you can pick out some mistakes.

.5/1 on GC, good mix of call-stations and 2+2ers.

I'm in EMP and Open-raise.

A 100% call station cold-calls in the CO (fish). PookerNoob (PN) calls on the button. The BB calls all-in.

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, fish calls, PN calls.

Turn: 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet, fish calls, PN calls.

River: T /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet, fish calls, PN raises, I call, fish calls.

My biggest mistake was calling the river raise. Can anyone tell me why? And no, it's not because there is a flush out there and PN is a 2+2er who raised. Try to think like I didn't know who PN is at all and the flush didn't get there, yet the actions on the river were the same.

Results/hands later (possibly tomorrow).

Peace,
Joe Tall

[GuyOnTilt]

My biggest mistake was calling the river raise. Can anyone tell me why?

Since PN raised a protected pot on the river, you shouldn't be calling with just a pair. Fold it next time. I'll put PN on either AJh or KJh. You have either AA, KK, AQ, or KQ, all of which should've been mucked on the river. Again, the key being that the pot is protected.

Hmmm...Because of your last sentence in your post, I'm going to narrow my read on your holdings down to AQ and KQ only. Both of those should be mucked on the river, even if the flush card doesn't come. I think you'd be very reluctant to fold AA or KK to a river raise if the T was a diamond, even though you probably should.

[Saborion]

Could you please explain the phrase 'protected pot' to me?

[GuyOnTilt]

Could you please explain the phrase 'protected pot' to me?

I believe it was Sklansky who first used the term. In "Sklansky on Poker," he defines it very well. I don't actually own the book, so I can't quote directly, but the concept is that if the pot is multiway on the river, a player can't bluff bet successfully. In the same way, if there's a bet and one or more caller, a player won't be able to bluff raise successfully. So in both these casees the pot is "protected" from a bluff.

In Joe's hand, he bet the river and was called, and the PN raised. PN can't possibly expect to win without a showdown, because the pot is "protected" by the presence of the caller, so his raise must mean he has more than one pair. Therefore, Joe should've folded all one pair hands.

Bad, bad Joe. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

GoT

PS. Somebody correct me if I'm forgetting something.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Could you please explain the phrase 'protected pot' to me?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the EXACT discussion I hope to get out of this thread.

Sab, do you understand Guy? He explained it perfectly.

Peace,
JT

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Somebody correct me if I'm forgetting something.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is only one thing, I think...

[ QUOTE ]
I believe it was Sklansky who first used the term. In "Sklansky on Poker," he defines it very well

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought this was a Mason concept for some reason, I may stand correct, but my gut says Mason.

Peace,
JT

[GuyOnTilt]

I thought this was a Mason concept for some reason, I may stand correct, but my gut says Mason.

You may be right. The only reason I thought it was a Sklansky concept is because he wrote an essay on it in "Sklansky on Poker." I haven't seen anything in print on it that dates back before that, but I'm willing to be corrected. Since I'm relatively new to this game, I haven't read as many publications as I should, so my knowledge about these types of things is very limited.

[Saborion]

Yes.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll put PN on either AJh or KJh

[/ QUOTE ]

I was praying for PN to flip over A /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif after I made my stupid call but no, he indeed flipped over K /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Well done, GOT.

[ QUOTE ]
You have either AA

[/ QUOTE ]

I did indeed have AA, Neo .

[ QUOTE ]
I think you'd be very reluctant to fold AA or KK to a river raise if the T was a diamond, even though you probably should.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have folded, to the raise no matter what. There was no way PN was bluffing on the river without 2-pair or better vs. 2-opponents + the BB's All-in.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[MaxPower]

Do you think PokerNoob made a mistake by calling the flop? All he has is a couple of backdoor draws and one overcard. There is a decent chance he will lose the pot even if he hits runner-runner or catches a King.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think PokerNoob made a mistake by calling the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes. Thus, I was praying for him to turn over AhQh. I wouldn't think that his King would be good when I still bet the turn without hesitation.

Preflop: I think his call is a little loose. One more cold caller between us and I wouldn't mind it as much, you?

Peace,
JT

[GuyOnTilt]

I doubt Joe has ever been in a spot like PN was in this hand. His biggest mistake was cold-calling PF, but I the flop call is a mistake as well. His K's will very rarely be good here, and his only other draw is a runner-runner flush. He can probably give himself 1.5 or 2 calculate outs, which makes it an easy muck.

[PokerNoob]

It was quite an interesting night. I don't know what it was, but I was severely lacking in concentration and made quite a few bad moves last night. I was laying down winners and paying extra bets when I lost. I was misplaying odds. And I was doing all this in front of a few 2+2ers.

On this particular hand, Guy is correct, I had the KJ of hearts. I called Joe's open raise (and let me tell you I was really giving those raises respect) after the fish coldcalled. I don't think I noticed that BB was all-in, I was too focused on those chips Joe had thrown out, which was pretty bad. I think this is a pretty standard call, but I'm not sure if it really wants more opponents than came along in this hand. What I really want to see is a good flush or straight flop. Not so sure about trips because if your opponent has the 4th, you're still dominated.

When the flop came Queen, rag, rag of hearts and Joe tossed out a bet, I thought that there are a lot of hands he might have that I'm drawing dead against, but there are some where a king helps (the JJ, ace-queens and AJs), and even a Jack against TT. I don't think Joe is tricky and pf raised something outside of the norm, but there may be some small chance of that too. So, about 30% of the time the 3 King outs are good, 5% for 3 Jack outs, and... what, about one extra out for the runner runner straight and flush. Thats about 2 outs total I guess. I think in the heat of battle I came up with about 4 and a half outs. Its a bad play to peel one off but I did it. Once the heart hits the turn the rest is by the book as long as the fish keeps calling.

[PokerNoob]

[ QUOTE ]

I was praying for PN to flip over A /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif after I made my stupid call but no, he indeed flipped over K /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Well done, GOT.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have AQ suited as a preflop reraise. If the board comes Queen high, I raise and fold (hopefully, one day) to your AA reraise or call you down to the river. Maybe one day I will be able to lay down TPTK.

[MaxPower]

I think I would dump KJs no matter how many cold-callers there were. I would call with hands that are slightly better after 2 or 3 cold-callers (for instance, AQs, AJs, KQs). KJs is not that great of a drawing hand when you are facing are raise.

[GuyOnTilt]

I'd still muck KJs with one more cold-caller. Interestingly, I'd probably consider cold-calling with one more player in the pot if I held T9s instead.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I would dump KJs no matter how many cold-callers there were.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said I wouldn't have 'minded' it as much. I still wouldn't have done it.

I like the other hands you listed calls after a family of callers, Max.

Peace,
JT

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
one more player in the pot if I held T9s instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

Peace,
JT

[JTG51]

I made a post about HPFAP ideas that don't apply to low limits in the Small Stakes forum a few days ago in a thread about raising preflop with AQ. It was a late night post and got buried quickly the next morning, so I don't think many people saw it. Anyway, this post fits in with that one.

The protected pot idea that's being talked about here doesn't apply nearly as well to low limits as it does to mid to high stakes games where everyone plays reasonably well. The key to the idea, as GuyOnTilt explained, is the player in the middle calling Joe's river bet. The problem is, in these games that guy could have anything. He could have Ace high, he could have 22, he could have A3, etc. So, his call alone doesn't mean that PokerNoob needs at least 2 pair to raise. His call can almost be ignored when Joe and PokerNoob are making their decisions.

I'm not saying that Joe should call in this case, or that PokerNoob will raise here with one pair, I'm just saying that there are different reasons.

That said, if PokerNoob was an unknown player there's no way I'd lay down AA in Joe's spot. There are just way too many low limit players that like to get 'tricky' with an overpair or AQ, or even make a horribly inappropriately timed bluff.

[GuyOnTilt]

I somewhat agree. The value of the protected pot concept is directly related to the skill of your opponents. Against horrible insane players, you might have to call in this spot. Against good, solid opponents, you have a clear fold. In this case, since PN is a 2+2'er who isn't the off-the-wall tricky type, but is a solid player, I think Joe should've folded his overpair. Would I have been able to do it? Maybe...It would've depended on how clearly I was thinking at the time. I'd like to say I would fold.

I'm interested to see that post that you made JTG, since I never got a chance to see it. Also, could anybody clear up where the idea of a "protected pot" first originated???

GoT

[MaxPower]

Good point. Tell me if this makes sense.

When Joe bets, PokerNoob should know that Joe isn't bluffing because the calling station will definitely call. For PokerNoob to know this, he has to know that Joe is a good player who wouldn't try to bluff a calling station.

The pot is only protected if the person doing the betting (or raising) is smart enough not to bluff the calling station.

If the bettor is not a strong player and their is a caller, you might have to overcall occasionaly.

A good player can sometimes use the protected pot against you by betting the 2nd best hand and getting you to lay down the winner.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I was praying for PN to flip over A /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif after I made my stupid call

[/ QUOTE ]

You should try praying for him to have a hand that you beat.

[JTG51]

Against good, solid opponents, you have a clear fold. In this case, since PN is a 2+2'er who isn't the off-the-wall tricky type, but is a solid player, I think Joe should've folded his overpair.

I agree, I can't imagine PokerNoob would ever raise in that spot with one pair or less since Joe's river bet has to be a real hand.

I'm interested to see that post that you made JTG, since I never got a chance to see it.

Here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=405 210&Forum=All_Forums&Words=404&Match=Username&Sear chpage=1&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=404779&Search= true#Post405210) it is. With all of the traffic on Small Stakes these days, my 3 AM posts tend to get buried very quickly the next morning.

Also, could anybody clear up where the idea of a "protected pot" first originated???

Sorry, I have no idea. I'd probably be banned form the forum if I told you how few poker books I've read.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. Thus, I was praying for him to turn over AhQh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Geez. You really, really wanted him to win this hand, huh? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[GuyOnTilt]

A good player can sometimes use the protected pot against you by betting the 2nd best hand and getting you to lay down the winner.

But by definition, they'd almost always be called by the other player, so they'd still have to have a good hand. There are situations where super-fancy plays on the river like this are doable, but they're few and far between. Don't make a habit of becoming tricky on the river; it'll only lose you chips.

GoT

[JTG51]

You should try praying for him to have a hand that you beat.

Yeah, I'd recommend praying that he raised the river with 24o, thinking nut nothing got half the pot.

[JTG51]

All good points Mr. Power. They are definitely worth thinking about, but they'll rarely be applied at these limits.

I overcall with medium strength hands on the river all the time in low limit games, provided I know the middle player will call with any pair (which is nearly the default in those games).

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Geez. You really, really wanted him to win this hand, huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

For his sake, yes and maybe argue a bit for his cold-call and flop call. See, Uly, I care.

At least I have the sack to post a hand I lost. /images/graemlins/blush.gif (heh heh)

Love, Peace and Greeks,
Joe Tall

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
All good points Mr. Power. They are definitely worth thinking about, but they'll rarely be applied at these limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was the point I wanted to make. A pot isn't protected just because it is multiway. It has to have the other elements as well. I agree that you will rarely find yourself in this situation at micro or small limits.

[ QUOTE ]

I overcall with medium strength hands on the river all the time in low limit games, provided I know the middle player will call with any pair (which is nearly the default in those games).

[/ QUOTE ]

Same here.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that you will rarely find yourself in this situation at micro or small limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I 100% agree with JTG and yourself. However, I knew I was smoked and still made the crying call. It was a bad call.

Peace,
JT

[GuyOnTilt]

I overcall with medium strength hands on the river all the time in low limit games, provided I know the middle player will call with any pair (which is nearly the default in those games).

Same here.

Um...I don't do this. Maybe I'm misinturpretting the term "overcall," but in my head I'm picturing someone betting, someone calling, and then you "overcalling" with only a mediocre hand. I definitely don't do this. A big part of the reason is because I rarely find myself in those situations. When I see the river, I'm usually in control of the pot, and when I'm not I'm usually on a draw, so my decision on the river is quite clear most of the time.

I don't do it consciously, but I think I make it a habit to very, very rarely overcall at showdown.

GoT

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I made a post about HPFAP ideas that don't apply to low limits

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why there is the AP attached to the title and a loose-games section in the newer addition.

[ QUOTE ]
The protected pot idea that's being talked about here doesn't apply nearly as well to low limits as it does to mid to high stakes games where everyone plays reasonably well

[/ QUOTE ]

In most games you are correct. However, for this particular hand I feel it does.

[ QUOTE ]
That said, if PokerNoob was an unknown player there's no way I'd lay down AA in Joe's spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. If I had ABSOULTELY NO read to these online players I would had called. (oh, yeah, I still did call, btw)

Peace,
JT

[JTG51]

When I see the river, I'm usually in control of the pot...

That's a good point. I made a poor choice of words when I said all the time.

I meant all the time in relation to the times I'm actually in that situation (which like you isn't all that often), not all the time in relation to all the hands I play. I imagine Max was thinking the same thing.

That's still not very clear, I hope it makes more sense though.

[MaxPower]

I understood what you meant. You meant "all the time" in that specific context.

I still overcall rarely, but I do it more than I would against good opponents.

[rkiray]

[ QUOTE ]
With all of the traffic on Small Stakes these days, my 3 AM posts tend to get buried very quickly the next morning.


[/ QUOTE ]

I was hoping the new forum would solve that problem. But at least today it looks like the number of posts swelled to absorb the new bandwidth. Maybe things will settle down in a couple of days.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
For his sake, yes and maybe argue a bit for his cold-call and flop call. See, Uly, I care.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you want him to raise either the flop or turn then, though?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
At least I have the sack to post a hand I lost. /images/graemlins/blush.gif (heh heh)

[/ QUOTE ]

My JTG impersonation with Aces (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=372022&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&vc=1)

Bad Beats (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=386699&page=&view=&sb =5&o=&vc=1)

It just seems like I win every hand, Joe. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Seriously, most hands I lose tend to fall into one of two categories:

1) I overplay a hand like an overpair or set and pay off an extra bet or two or three when I should laydown or back off.

2) I play a hand perfectly and someone catches a garbage bottom pair or gutshot or something on the river and I have to pay off a raise/checkraise.

Neither of those situations often have much interesting stuff to discuss.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Neither of those situations often have much interesting stuff to discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

True true.

Just bustin' yar balls Uly, haven't you seen my 'Occupation'?

Peace,
Joe