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View Full Version : Is this an auto-fold?????


Gomez22
11-13-2003, 10:05 PM
Party .50/1.00 table, I'm in MP with pocket jacks

UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, I raise, MP3 folds, CO calls, button 3-bets, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls, I call, CO calls.

FLOP: K83

Checked to me, I bet, folded to button, who raises, folded back to me......

Is this an auto-fold situation?

JTG51
11-13-2003, 10:27 PM
Unless Button is a nut, yes it's a fold. Against a reasonably tight 3-bettor you can skip the bet and check fold the flop.

GuyOnTilt
11-13-2003, 10:33 PM
Before the rake, you're getting 19.5:1 on your call. (Sorry, I'm not familiar with the rake at .5/1) You're a 22.5:1 dog to hit your set on the turn. That means you can call if you think you'll be able to make 1.5 BB's from your opponent if you hit your 2-outer. Since you undoubtedly will, you call. I think your implied odds here are 3 BB's, so you could've called the flop raise getting as little as 16.5:1 if you were headsup. You would want more, though, for the times your opponent has KK, and because there are times that you'll hit on the turn, and he'll hit his AA or QQ on the river. But there's also the chance that you're in the lead and your opponent will check through on the turn (although this is very, very small). I'd estimate you'd need about 18:1 to make this call in this spot. If that's what you're getting after the drop, then call. If not, then fold.

JTG51
11-13-2003, 10:36 PM
I miscounted the pot when I said to fold. Guy is right.

Gomez22
11-13-2003, 10:41 PM
Ummmmmmmm......................

Thanks for replying, GOT, but next time, in english, please.........?????????

LOL

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

'Mez

Gomez22
11-13-2003, 10:42 PM
I called the flop raise.... the turn was some crap card, I checked, then folded to button's bet....

GuyOnTilt
11-13-2003, 10:44 PM
I'm not sure if you're being serious or not... /images/graemlins/smile.gif If you didn't understand my post for real, then let me know and I'll try again.

Gomez22
11-13-2003, 10:46 PM
I understood it....... just being a little funny....... When I first started here, you gave me an answer like that, and I swear I had to read the reply at least 8 times to get it.

Only had to read this one twice.....

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Joe Tall
11-13-2003, 10:48 PM
Check/call the flop here, Gomez, I think you are getting close to enough odds to turn a set. And the set will pay off well, I'm sure.

Peace,
JT

Joe Tall
11-13-2003, 10:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I miscounted the pot when I said to fold. Guy is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

He is the prodigal son.

Gomez22
11-13-2003, 10:51 PM
So this is a time when I should be passive on the flop? All this time everyone tells me to be aggressive, so I grab my juevos, bet out on an overcard flop, and I shoulda check/called it?

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Don't know if I'll ever get this game.......

/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

GuyOnTilt
11-13-2003, 10:54 PM
Good stuff. Just checking! Glad to see you're improving in your understanding of the game. Keep it up!

JTG51
11-13-2003, 10:57 PM
Don't know if I'll ever get this game.......

The difference here is that someone 3-bet you before the flop. If you were the only preflop raiser you should definitely bet that flop.

Think about what hands he might 3-bet with preflop. How many of them can JJ beat on a Kxx flop? Pretty much none if he's got normal 3-betting standards.

GuyOnTilt
11-13-2003, 11:00 PM
So this is a time when I should be passive on the flop? All this time everyone tells me to be aggressive, so I grab my juevos, bet out on an overcard flop, and I shoulda check/called it?

The deciding factor in this hand is that you were 3-bet PF. Assuming your opponent isn't super-aggressive PF or doesn't view you as a maniac, how many hands would he 3-bet that you're ahead of on a Kxx flop? Not too many. If he had cold-called, then betting would definitely be in order.

Gomez22
11-13-2003, 11:02 PM
Yeah.... I had that figured.... AA, KK, AK(s), QQ....... Just wanted to make sure I was thinking correctly........ ThingDo told me last night playing against him that I should be 3-betting into him with AK....... is that SOP?
Normally, I'll either raise with AK, or call a raise with it.... am I missing out here by not 3-betting with it?

GuyOnTilt
11-13-2003, 11:08 PM
Normally, I'll either raise with AK, or call a raise with it.... am I missing out here by not 3-betting with it?

Yes. AK is an excellent hand and will be ahead of almost all hands that people raise with. When you hit the flop you have TPTK and you're able to win short-handed unimproved. You have position (most of the time) over the raiser and want to take control over the pot. 3-betting AKo should be SOP.

Joe Tall
11-13-2003, 11:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
So this is a time when I should be passive on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

This time you weren't 'in control' of the action. You had a player behind you 3-bet and a King hit. You are likely beat, don't you think? I may think that if a Q hit, it may change this a little but a K or A and you've got to check call with your set-odds.

[ QUOTE ]
Don't know if I'll ever get this game.......

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what we are here for, bro. That's why you are here.

Peace,
JT

Dylan Wade
11-13-2003, 11:12 PM
Ok, now I'm wondering something. If he only checks the flop he has a very marginal call. I don't think there is any chance it will get checked through. If he bets it, he could get called (likely J's are still good) or raised where he would have an easy call. It sounds like betting puts him in a better position.

Checking is also my default play here, but I've been wondering about this for a few minutes here...

Gomez22
11-13-2003, 11:18 PM
Thanks, Joe, but I STILL think the Cowboys beat the Pats 27-16............ hehehehehehehehehehehehe

Nottom
11-14-2003, 01:29 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Normally, I'll either raise with AK, or call a raise with it.... am I missing out here by not 3-betting with it?

[/ QUOTE ]

How many times do people have to hear that cold-calling preflop is almost always wrong?

Homer
11-14-2003, 11:30 AM
If he only checks the flop he has a very marginal call. I don't think there is any chance it will get checked through.

Right. But if he knows he is behind, which is almost certainly true when you have JJ, someone three-bets you preflop and the flop comes Kxx, then check-calling or check-folding is better than betting.

If he bets it, he could get called (likely J's are still good) or raised where he would have an easy call. It sounds like betting puts him in a better position.

This concerns me. It sounds like you are saying he should bet even though he knows he will be raised. He should do this so that he is getting better odds on calling the second bet. Am I interpreting this correctly? If so, you're wrong. Betting when you know that you will be raised is the same as calling two bets cold. And he isn't getting odds to call two bets cold to see the turn. In other words, once it is raised, you are getting correct odds to call and see the turn, but the collective action on the street is incorrect.

-- Homer