5 card draw with the Joker

[Theodore Donald Kiravatsos]

I will preface this by saying that I have VERY little experience with this game, but I do enjoy calling 5-draw Jacks or Better in our home game from time to time. So don't give me the business if I was supposed to raise pre-draw (but should I have????)

Dealt: A-Joker-7-6-4 on the button.

Player to my right opens. I call.
Two in EP who had previously passed now call. They
are not creative enough to sandbag before the draw, and definitely would have opened if they had openers.
EP players draw 1 each.
Opener draws 3.

I figure that my hand is currently good against
opener who most likely has JJ-KK. Since EP's both are likely drawing to better straights/flushes than
my 12-way (small) straight draw, I abandon it and draw 3 to the A-Joker. Pick up 884.

EP players check, indicating they missed. Again,
they are not creative enough to try a checkraise in this spot, so they have nothing. Had they bet, I'd have folded unhesitatingly without a big hand.

Opener checks, indicating (to me) he did not improve.

I bet my Aces up, EP players fold as expected, and
opener shows me his unimproved AA (because it's a home game).

Perhaps most will think that the drawing strategy was obvious in this case, but I personally find it rare when I feel like my plan of action in Draw is this obvious against a field like this. And a hand that could be played many different ways seems to have played itself.

Would it not be better to raise and isolate the opener? Then, if he draws 2, or 1 to two pair, I know I need to draw to the straight, and if he draws 3, then I draw to the Ace-Joker. I didn't think of this on the spot, but would be interested in any comments.

[bygmesterf]

[ QUOTE ]
I will preface this by saying that I have VERY little experience with this game, but I do enjoy calling 5-draw Jacks or Better in our home game from time to time. So don't give me the business if I was supposed to raise pre-draw (but should I have????)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just my take on it, having played some jack's or better while I worked as an aide in a nursing home, and my copy of super system and malmuths winning concepts (the really old version from 1988). Some of the old timers in the nursing home from LA love to play draw poker and are always making a game.


Take any advice with a big grain of salt. Maybe some of the experts here have a better analysis. Maybe you should get Malmuths book, cause it's really good.

I think raising to block out other people is important, if you are sure the opener is weak I.e has less than aces. Then you should raise. to discourage people backing in, if you know that people won't sandbag.

[ QUOTE ]
Dealt: A-Joker-7-6-4 on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice hand

[ QUOTE ]
Player to my right opens. I call.
Two in EP who had previously passed now call. They
are not creative enough to sandbag before the draw, and definitely would have opened if they had openers.
EP players draw 1 each.
Opener draws 3.

I figure that my hand is currently good against
opener who most likely has JJ-KK. Since EP's both are likely drawing to better straights/flushes than
my 12-way (small) straight draw, I abandon it and draw 3 to the A-Joker. Pick up 884.


[/ QUOTE ]

The players who backed in are on the come unless, they are savvy enough to pass twopair/small trips trying to catch somone opening with just a pair and then fake making a flush to get a call. That's kid of an advanced thing to do. So you most likely don't have that problem.

You having the joker, means that thet their draws are really bad. Especially if any of the players is foolish enough to play an ordinary straight draw.

You straight draw has value in that you will hit it more often than they will, and you are behind them so you can dump it if they bet. If you make your straight and the opener makes a hand, you can raise him. So I like to go for the straight draw, but then again I like to play big hands.

Drawing three to the Ace Joker is a fine play.

[ QUOTE ]
EP players check, indicating they missed. Again,
they are not creative enough to try a checkraise in this spot, so they have nothing. Had they bet, I'd have folded unhesitatingly without a big hand.

Opener checks, indicating (to me) he did not improve.

I bet my Aces up, EP players fold as expected, and
opener shows me his unimproved AA (because it's a home game).

[/ QUOTE ]

Malmuth says The proper play Aces vs Aces in postion is very important in all types of draw poker. Note that you need to be %100 sure that is is the situation.

Essentially you with the Ace-Joker you are favored over plain aces cause of the slight extra possibiltys of making straights and flushes. Which is fun when it happens. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

And you have the joker ,which means no one else has it. So less pat hands, and no good straight/flush draws out there.

Basicly if you are first you should bet all AATT or better if the opener has exactly Aces OR Kings. If the opener has exactly Kings then you should bet all aces up. Calling with Aces up is always worthwhile unless the other player won't bet post draw with less than trips. Just common sense really.

If the opener might be even weaker, you should bet all aces up.

If the opener passes to you, and won't check raise you should bet all Aces up, and any Aces with a good kicker or better if he wouldn't pass and call with smaller two pair to you.

I think it's a good bet to call with all aces up, unless the opener only bets trips or better after the draw.

[ QUOTE ]

Perhaps most will think that the drawing strategy was obvious in this case, but I personally find it rare when I feel like my plan of action in Draw is this obvious against a field like this. And a hand that could be played many different ways seems to have played itself.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ace's are almost always profitable. Mich more than in Hold'em I think.

[ QUOTE ]
Would it not be better to raise and isolate the opener?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends, you don't want to piss off your friends.

[ QUOTE ]
Then, if he draws 2, or 1 to two pair, I know I need to draw to the straight, and if he draws 3, then I draw to the Ace-Joker. I didn't think of this on the spot, but would be interested in
any comments.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he draws 1 to twopair you should go for the aces, 2.5-1 on makeing Aces up or better, vs 3-1 on making the 12 way straight (Stats from Super system.). If he draws two, and it's to trips and not anything else, then you go for the straight.

Bygmesterf --

[crockpot]

you probably ought to raise preflop, both to get it heads up and because you have a good chance of being ahead.

i agree with your drawing strategy. if one of the EP players has hit their hand, your straight will likely be no good, so you are looking to beat the opener.

good post-draw bet.

you are better off drawing to ace-joker if you know he has two pair. if he makes a full house it will make no difference, but if not you have a better chance of beating two pair by drawing to ace-joker than a 12-way straight.

[ElSapo]

I abandon it and draw 3 to the A-Joker. Pick up 884.

I bet my Aces up, EP players fold as expected, and

Unless there are some rules on what you can use the joker for, I probably would have bet my trips...

[chaos]

When draw poker was popular in CA cardrooms, the joker could only be used as an Ace or to complete a straight or a flush.