AKo button 20-40

[mike l.]

it's 6 handed and not very good, but we're moving into a very good main game. 20-40 around 3am. folded to me on the button and i raise w/ AKo. sb pretty nitty player calls, another only a bit less nitty/more normal, decent player calls in the bb.

the flop is 765 rainbow. sb checks, bb bets, i call, sb calls.

the turn is K (rainbow board). sb bets, bb raises, i 3 bet, sb folds, bb 4 bets, i muck.

comments?

[Vehn]

Not to jump on the tighter than thou brigade but I can't think of a worster flop for you.

[mike l.]

yeah i know it sucked, but should i just give up for one bet there? is it close?

[Vehn]

I dunno about you but I really prefer to not give nitty players action at all.

[Ulysses]

I'd probably play this just like you did. But I think a better player than us (assuming he saw the turn) could find the fold when the BB raises the turn.

I'm looking forward to hearing some of their thoughts on this hand.

[mike l.]

i felt like the bb could be betting the flop w/ just a pair, an over pair like 99 or TT or even bigger, a pair and a straight draw (87s or 86s i guess), 98 for the straight, a set, or even a hand like KQs, AQ, or AK. obviously given his semi-nitty nature some hands are more likely than others, but it seemed like all these hands were at least possible.

[cosmo kramer]

The flop couldn't be worse. You could raise the flop and see what they do. But, they are just as likely to play back at you with a single pair as they are a straight, so that is no help. Therefore, I think a call on the flop and a fold on the turn would be the best play.

[Ulysses]

I'm really hoping to see some more responses to this one. It's a very common situation and I wonder if there really is a "correct" standard way to play this. Whatever the optimal play is, it sure isn't obvious to me. It definitely can't be all that wrong to just fold on the flop to a bet from a semi-nitty blind on that board.

However, thinking about this a little more, I'll toss out one thought about the turn. If you're going to fold to a turn 4-bet, isn't cold-calling on the turn a better move? And then go with the standard call or bet if checked to on the river?

[mike l.]

sb, the true nit of the story, is capable of folding 88 on this board when it's two bets cold to him on the turn. not sure why else to get him out though...

im allergic to cold calling and i think it's a problem. all skills should be available at all times.

[karlson]

Ok, I'll take a shot.

I fold the flop. How much am I giving up if I do happen to be up against Q7 or such junk? Not much. If he's betting a draw then he's got an 8, and I think more than half the time he'll have a pair or one of my cards. I don't like it, not on this board.

Once I get to the turn, I have to admit that I probably play it the way Mike did. But in hindsight? Folding looks awfully tasty. Simplest explanation for SB is that he has a K. 88? He didn't checkraise the flop why? Well, he's nitty, yeah. But does BB know that? The raise has to mean something, I think.

I guess there are some players in BB's spot who will think "Well no one raised on the flop, my pair is best. You bet into me on the turn? Ah, you probably have nothing or you would have checkraised, I raise".

I don't really understand the logic of wanting to cold-call if willing to fold to the 4-bet, perhaps you can enlighten me. Seems like you're making sure you get the extra bet in when ahead and losing the same when behind (I am assuming that Mike folding to the 4-bet means he was pretty sure he was up against a set/straight).

I'm pretty sure that this is a fold on the turn with no knowledge of the players. If this is one of those crazy party shorthanded tables, it's probably an easy three-bet. I am assuming that "pretty nitty" leans more towards the latter, so I probably play it the same way if I call the flop.

[PokerPrince]

As unexciting as it seems, I would fold on the flop.

PokerPrince

[RollaJ]

Id see the turn, you have odds for that. When 2 bets to me on the turn I make a crying fold 85% of the time. The other 15% I call and see a showdown for the same price as 3 betting the turn..... if up against something like 6-7 you have a lot of outs, you want a chance to see the river.

[gaylord focker]

On the flop I think you best play is fold. Tough to do, but considering the pot can be raised behind you again I think its the play. That being said, it's certainly isnt a horrible call, esspecially in a short game, where its important to let others know it wil be tough to push you off a hand.

On the turn, I think its close between folding and three betting, and obviously calling the four bet isnt an option. I think fold is best because since you just smooth called on the flop, it should occur to your oppenents that the king may have hit you. But, they both showed strengh into that card with you behind them. It's easy to put the 1st player on a straight draw and the second player on a middle pair, but there are lots of possible hands that have you in deep poop, and quite a few have you putting all that money in there dead.

[Philuva]

I think you should either call it down or fold to the 2 bets on the turn. I hate the 3 bet, fold to a 4 bet play.

I am actually leaning towards folding. The SB's bet on the turn screams, I have a king. The BB still raises, which tells me I can beat a king. So a fold may be right.

If I couldn't find the fold, I think calling it down is probably the best alternative. The SB is going to be hard pressed to make it 3-bets given the betting action on the flop and turn without a monster.

[nykenny]

best advice so far /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[andyfox]

An argument for folding on the flop:
-You have no pair.
-You have no draw.
-The board is coordinated.
-The board is more likely to have hit a blind hand than a voluntary raiser's hand.
-The blinds are nitty.
-If an ace comes you may be looking at aces up.
-If a Q,J,T,9,8,7,6,5,4,3 or 2 comes on the turn, it doesn't help your hand.
-They "know" this flop doesn't help you. (although this can also be an argument for calling)

An argument for folding on the turn:
-You have only one pair.
-Big blind bet the flop and now raised the turn despite the king.
-The board is still coordinated for hands other than A-K.
-Cold-calling on the turn without a monster or a monster draw is a crime against humanity. 3-betting into this board is suicidalesque.
-Guys who still show aggression when an overcard to the flop comes are often looking to get (re)raised.
-Little action on the flop plus big action on the turn often equals big hands.

[Diplomat]

I'd anguish over doing it, but I'd fold the flop. I wonder sometimes if I've become too tight in situations like this, but I used to bleed chips in similar situations so often that I have an alergic reaction to them, similar to Mike's reaction to cold-calling.

It's also a psychological battle. I had an interesting chat with someone today about this -- the more you give into your desire, the more it grows and controls you. Part of folding on the flop, for me anyway, would be the psychological power levied from raising pre-flop against two blinds, and folding on the flop for a single bet. It's a rush, and why I identified with Tommy Angelo's story about folding aces pre-flop.

However, given that I called the flop, I think the turn is a tough decision between cold-calling and folding (to the BB's first raise). I think in this hand I would favour folding. I'd look at it from the BB's perspective:

I have XX. I bet the flop with something, because I am a nit. The turn was a big card, and the SB bet into me. Well, that means he probably has, or can beat, a king -- like me, he's a nit, and would not bet nothing. But since I have XX, and I can beat a king, I raise. I would not raise unless I can beat a king. And since that goofy kid on the button might have hit the turn, I want to charge him the maximum right now. He's so loose-aggressive, he might even three-bet me! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

So I'd probably fold. If someone told me I was not permitted to fold, I'd cold-call and call the river (maybe call the river), or bet if checked to. (and the river was favourable)

I've got to be missing something about the turn raise, because I cannot see what it accomplishes. The way I see it, the nits are either going to fold a sub-par hand, or are going to bang back with a stronger hand.

-Diplomat

[Tommy Angelo]

Excellently mullable situation.

"the flop is ... [a total and bad miss] ... sb checks, bb bets, i call."

Yeech, mike, that was one of the most painful calls I ever read.

I fold in spots like this more than anyone I know and time after time it feels soooo right.

They [all players who have ever bet the flop from the big blind in this situation] saw you raise before the flop. With no thought at all they know lots of things. They know you have at the absolute minimum two overcards to the board which is a hand that is pretty much never folded for one bet on the flop, last to act, in a raised pot. They know that if you have an overpair or maybe as little as open-ended that you'll pop-em up on the flop.

But they bet, right at you, anyway.




Tommy