What's my hand?

[Ed Miller]

15-30 at the Bellagio. This is a bad game filled with locals and pro types. Most pots are raised and two or three-handed.

EP seems cocky. He made a snide comment about not wanting to play with someone who writes stuff down when I came to the game(and recorded the time I began my session). He's also been bs'ing with Mike Matusow and clearly thinks that doing so makes him look cool.

LP is probably the worst player in the game... he has reasonable (not good, but not any two suited) preflop hand selection, but is absurdly passive by Bellagio 15-30 standards.

Anyway, EP open-raises. I call. LP calls. 3-handed to the flop for two bets each.

Flop is K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. EP bets and I raise. LP calls, and EP 3-bets. I call, as does LP.

Turn is the 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. EP bets, and I raise. LP folds and EP calls.

River is the Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. EP checks, I bet, and EP calls.

[Paluka]

I would say AK or KsQs.

[James282]

Your hand is KK. You knew the table was tight and people weren't going to call 2 cold with crap to draw out on you, but didn't want to give away the strength of your hand. Your flop and turn action looks exactly like KK..raise the flop because you believe your opponent has AK and you know he will three bet...call the three bet so you can pop the turn. I would say you would almost never have AK or KQ here because A) KQs plays crappily heads up against a raise from a good player and B) With AK you might want to narrow the field more and hope to win unimproved against AQ or so or catch against a smaller pair.

You could also have 99, but I think if you got this hand you would either fold or reraise to get it heads up against overcards. There is an outside possibility of AA, but I am sticking with KK.
-James

[RollaJ]

I ditto Paluka, KK is too perfect

[James282]

I can't think of any reason Majorkong would cold-call with a hand like AK or KQs here unless he wanted to vary his play. He is purposely setting himself up to be "behind" the entire hand. If he wanted to win unimproved, which has to be one of your hopes with AK or KQ, then he would have raised. A cold-call is very weak in this spot, and as many 2+2ers have taught me, not something that good players do unless it is for strategical advantage or unless the odds to draw are simply too good.
-James

[PokerPrince]

Who's writing stuff down? And what are they writing down?

PokerPrince

[PokerPrince]

First of all leave the game. I'm sure you can find softer at that limit elsewhere. My initial thought was that you held KQs but I really can't see you coldcalling with that hand. Possibly you're taking the ciaffone/brier approach to AK and just called with it instead of reraising. I'll say the AK with an off chance of an AA smoothcall.

PokerPrince

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say AK or KsQs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was not implying that I thought this was the correct way to play AK or KsQs. I think raising the flop with KK would be a strange play given that you have a weak player behind you who might get involved in the rest of the hand for just one bet.

[nykenny]

AA, KK, 99? whatelse can you have?

all i feel is that you can beat AK...

unless you think that EP thinks that you might push flush draw (AQs) or any pocket pair (QQ, JJ, TT, 88, 77) and thus test you with QQ JJ, then you can play any of above mentioned hands this way hoping to make him lay down QQ JJ.

really not good at guessing. i would just lay down on the turn if i were your opponent, would that have been a mistake?

Ken

[nykenny]

might i add AKs, AKo

[rharless]

I don't see how it would be KK as some suggest. I don't see a good enough reason to drive out a weak LP player when you could tie him onto the pot, if you held KK. I assume since he is "reasonable" that he doesn't have a wide range of cold-calling hands, especially if there is only one K remaining. If you held KK you want him in, not out.

From Major-"It is rarely correct to be the first cold caller"-Kong, I would think you consider AA/KK/ maybe AKs to be candidates for cold calling, especially with an overpuffed EP and a weak LP.

It appears too easy to choose this, but I will go with AA. Maximize the preflop pot. Raise the flop to take control and charge LP. Call the flop 3bet so you can then leverage the turn bet to apply pressure to LP. River is routine.

Maybe also A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Any AK really, but AsKs would be fun. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The main thing which makes me double-think... if the hand is AA, that seems too easy. It seems like the answer would be craftier, by the very fact that you found the hand interesting to post.

[RollaJ]

Bonus guess: 10-J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif/J-Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Analyst]

I'll second rollaj's j /images/graemlins/diamond.gif/10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Seems to fit the betting with the exception of pre-flop. Would most people fold this pre-flop?

[Nottom]

The coldcall preflop is interesting. I don't think you would coldcall with AJs or KQs here, and I think you would 3-bet AA, AK, or KK.

I think you had the quads.

[DanZ]

KsQs

Dan Z.

[PokerPrince]

I strongly doubt Kong would coldcall a preflop raise with QJs or JTs. I'm surprised he coldcalled with anything.

PokerPrince

[Philuva]

I'll go with AsKs.

[RollaJ]

Final Guess!: 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif Tilting on a Stone Cold Bluff

[Kevin J]

I hope you had KK, since that's one of the only cold-calling type hands I would consider for this type of game. If so, I love your immediate raise on the flop and resisting the urge to slowplay. IMO-

[anatta]

Its the cold call preflop that is has me wondering.

I don't think its suited connectors (QJs, JTs), medium pair or KQ. Bad players cold-call with these.

I don't think its AK or KK. There is a king on the flop, if UTG has a king (likely), there is only 1 combo of KK. If UTG has AK, Kong has 6 ways for his AK. I think good players 3 bet these hands most every time preflop.

I think its AA and he chose to cold call Mr. Cocky to induce excessive action post flop.

[sweetjazz]

I'll try A /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

[Diplomat]

Hi MK,

I have not read the other posts yet, but I'd guess red aces. I think you would re-raise with AK to get the pot heads up, but you might just call with aces for deception. (and because one raise is going to get rid of the junk that might threaten your holding and limit the players anyway)

I think he has AK or KQs.

Just guesses.

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

I don't think MK would call with JT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in this game, and JQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif would be tough, since the Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is on the board. I think calling pre-flop with either hand in this game is a mistake.

Tangent: I second Prince on his note about finding another game.

-Diplomat

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
and JQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif would be tough, since the Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is on the board


[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon, you havent played till you played 2 deck poker /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Diplomat]

In that case I say they both have KK and chop the pot. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

-Diplomat

[rharless]

Maybe both of them, and Phil Helmuth too, have black 99 and it's a three-way chop.

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[brian0729]

Im going with 99 or QQ or even AA. Im not sure you would cold call w/99 pre flop though? QQ seems possible you could cold call w/ that preflop. It is consistent with the flop raise and call of a 3bet. And I like the play of trying to isolate the EP on the turn which you dont feel has a K. Nice river although I think you were ahead the whole time. AA has already been discussed. My final answer is QQ.

[CrackerZack]

Reading vehn's thread and cold-calling with AA?

[CrackerZack]

I had the exact same thought before thinking there is no way he doesn't 3-bet AK and KK and he's not gonna cold call in this game with big suited connectors, so it has to be AA vehn-style.

[Joe Tall]

Cold call w/AA?

Why not trap a cocky player by cold calling w/AA here, I think that would be a great play.

Peace,
JT

[rharless]

Yes. Beyond the hand, consider the EV of trapping a cocky elbow-rubbing player, and sending him on tilt with you in position to isolate him on future hands. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Ulysses]

I've read the responses and gotta go with Aces as well. I hope you wrote down the action of this hand at the table.

[DrSavage]

Looks like slowplayed Granny Mae to me.

[mikelow]

[Huskiez]

I think you have AA and he has AK.

[Ed Miller]

My hand was the A /images/graemlins/spade.gifA /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

The other hands that I would consider cold-calling preflop with in this spot are KK and possibly AKs. I would 3-bet with QQ and probably fold 99. I would certainly fold KQs and would 3-bet with AKo.

Since the range of hands that I would cold-call with here is so damn small, I'd better not make this play repeatedly against observant opponents. But this was the first time I'd unveiled it at the Bellagio 15-30, so I figured it would be deceptive.

The "that dumb bastard called my raise with a nine" look on my opponent's face when I raised the turn was priceless too. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[gavrilo]

When reading, I thought KsQs, agree with Paluka

[James282]

Nice hand. What would you do if he popped you again on the turn? Would you consider folding to the possibility that HE had KK? Unless he is an idiot, he probably wouldn't think his TPTK was good at this point and pop it. I would probably call, but I think if he raises the turn this hand becomes difficult to play at an "expert level". I wonder how many people would lay it down if he popped the turn for a 3 bet, how many people would call, and how many people would press with a raise.
-James

[CrackerZack]

[ QUOTE ]
The "that dumb bastard called my raise with a nine" look on my opponent's face

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually when I'm the opponent in that case, I say to myself, or aloud, depending on my move, "if you cold-called with a 9, god bless you." and proceed to go to showdown. And then would feel a bit dumb when you turned over a better hand all along.

[Paluka]

While I thought this was a somewhat interesting exercise, I think the real question for this hand should be "what is the best hand you would fold on the turn facing the raise from Majorkong".

[Joe Tall]

So what was his reaction AFTER the showdown? Tell me he steamed chips for the next hour into your pile?!?

Peace,
JT

[Diplomat]

Sweeeeet, I got one right for a change.

[ QUOTE ]

The "that dumb bastard called my raise with a nine" look on my opponent's face when I raised the turn was priceless too. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I love it. Just love it. Even better would be the look on his face when you showed aces. I'd advocate tipping the dealer before turning over your hand, or saying something like, "I can't win, I only have aces" the second he called your river bet, just before turning over your hand.

Then again, I'm an a#@$%&e. (and kidding, of course)

-Diplomat

[nykenny]

woohoo! out of 4 guesses i got it right! (AA, KK, 99, AK)

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Ed Miller]

So what was his reaction AFTER the showdown? Tell me he steamed chips for the next hour into your pile?!?

He took a walk immediately after the hand and hadn't returned by the time I got my table change.

[skp]

I don't care how deceptive you think you might get by raising with KK on a K99 flop, but, with respect, raising in this spot when against only two opponents would be a decidedly bad play. You might - and I emphasize might - consider raising when there is a gaggle of opponents left to act behind you as now there is a greater chance that someone will have a 9, a diamond draw, a strong King etc. who could be misled by your flop raise. But against two opponents, there is too great a chance that you will get no action at all once you raise i.e. the LP folds, and the EP either folds right there (less likely) or calls the raise and checkfolds on the turn (more likely).

Incidentally, my first two guesses on major's hands were AA and KsQs. I note that he says that he wouldn't coldcall a raise with KsQs in this game. Thank goodness that I am just about never in a game (at least locally) where folding KsQs would be the right play.

[Kevin J]

Skp- Why would he have made any less on this hand if he held KK instead of AA?

Btw- I said, KK was 1 of the only hands I'd cold call with. The other of course, was AA.

[Kevin J]

I'm actually LESS inclined to slowplay a monster short-handed than when multi-way (assuming the pot isn't too big).

When you cripple the deck short-handed, it's an either/or situation. Either your opponent(s) will have something they can play, or they won't. And sometimes they won't have anything, but still will make an attempt to represent a 9 or the hand you're holding! I don't see a lot of promise slowplaying a monster short-handed. I always get a sadistic kick out of someone who slowplays kings full here only to find out his opponent had AA or a 9 and would've given him plenty of action. If not, he probably wouldn't have gotten much anyway.

Multi-way (if the pot isn't already too big) is different IMO-. Now, if you've crippled the deck, there is a better chance slowplaying will achieve its purpose. More hands mean there are more chances someone will actually make something (or at least make a draw) if you slowplay.

Some of the biggest heads-up pots I've ever won were from playing my monster fast against another good aggressive player.

Either way, it's a nice problem to have.

[skp]

But the problem with raising is that you greatly diminish the chances of your opponent putting in hopeless bluff bets on 4th and 5th streets. In a 3 handed pot where you hold KK, a K99 flop will probably have missed your two opponents. The preflop raiser will assume the flop has missed you as well and will likely bet the turn (and possibly the river) if you play it cool. Also, the third guy might peel one off on the flop to catch an Ace, spike a full etc. While there are benefits to fast playing, the benefits of slowplaying are greater.

Now, should MajorKong smoothcall with AA on a flop of K99? Well, that is now a more dangerous slowplay given that the flop offers a gutshot and given that the dude behind you may well have one of those gutshots. Also, with AA, there is now a much greater cahnce that one of them has hit a King and will call your raise. So, I would say that raising with AA is the better play but that calling with KK is the much better play.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
He took a walk immediately after the hand and hadn't returned by the time I got my table change.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure you will see him again. Use if to your advantage.

Nice hand,
Joe Tall