AA against a big field: you go all-in?

[Nate tha' Great]

Party $50+$5 SNG. Early stages; blinds are 15/30, two wild players have been eliminated. I have exactly 1000 chips.

I'm on the Button and dealt. A /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. There are two limpers to me and I make it 100, thinking I'll get a couple callers who put me on a steal. Instead, I get four callers: the SB and BB, plus the limpers. No reraise (damn).

Five to see the flop of:
6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

SB has ~1500 chips and opens for 450. CO (limper) calls. The action is on me.

You go all-in or fold? I don't consider just calling to be an option here.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Nate,

I smell a set here, if not the SB, then the CO. T8, QT, and 67 are other strong possibilities. But heck, I've seen people make this same move on QJ, KJ, or AJ. I don't know the players, and it's early. So I'd probably mutter a few choice words to myself and muck AA.

Cris

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm on the Button and dealt. A A . There are two limpers to me and I make it 100, thinking I'll get a couple callers who put me on a steal. Instead, I get four callers: the SB and BB, plus the limpers. No reraise (damn).


[/ QUOTE ]


This is the mistake of the hand. After two limpers you need to raise it to more than T100 if the BB is 30. I'd make it T160 or around that.

[jayg]

In my experience in sit-n-go's, the raises need to be pretty forceful to narrow the field -- a bigger raise is likely to eliminate, for example, 2 random hearts.

In any case, I think you're behind. The bet out could be a lot of things, and the call makes me very uneasy. I'd like to think I'd muck it. Not a lot of cards you're going to like to see on the turn here.

-j

[Nate tha' Great]

The preflop raise amount might be a leak on my part, so I'm curious about this.

I really don't mind having a couple of callers with AA, especially with position. Not four callers, mind you, but one or two would be nice. I've been somewhat partial to a one-size-fits-most raise of 3x-4x the big blind in the early going of SNGs, because I can make that raise comfortably with hands less than AA, and then bail out relatively cheaply if need be.

How do you get to T160? Is it the size of the bet relative to the BB, relative to the pot, relative to the stack sizes, or what?

I think I need to buy that damned tournaments book.

[metaname]

Knowing nothing about the competition, I would generally push in here. Typically, I think you will be ahead more often then not. Top set is unlikely, as is two pair, although top two is a possibility. The only hands to fear are 66, 99, j9 (and you have a lot of outs against j9); I think theres a better chance you're up against top pair - flush draw types of hands. Most would go for the check raise with trips/top two, or atleast bet small hoping to reraise all in on the flop. I do agree that a larger pre-flop raise would be appropriate, I'd probably make it close to 200 to go.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Nate,

Like you, I have a "standard" pre-flop raise of around 3x-4x the big blind. But when there are two or more limpers, I increase that to about 1.5x pot. So with blinds of 15/30 and two limpers, there's already 105 in the pot, and I'd go with 150-180 for the raise. I suspect that's where the 160 figure came from.

There are three reasons I make a bigger raise with two or more limpers ahead of me. First, the limpers have given decent pot odds to people behind me who are thinking of playing a drawing hand, and I want to wreck those odds. Second, I want to force those limpers to make a hard choice when the action gets back around to them. Third, if they call that big a raise, I can eliminate some possible hands and read them easier once the flop comes.

Cris

[ZeeJustin]

Late in a tourney, I would fold in this situation, however, this early I would raise all-in.

The play from the SB is incorrect no matter what hand he has IMO, so it's very hard to put him on a hand. He could have anything including T /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif or 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif or K /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif as well as the dreaded set. Against 2 pair, you are at least drawing fairly live.

One problem, however, are the people to act after you. You have no clue what any of them have.

Early in a tournament, my goal is to usually get a big stack so I have room to play with later in the tourny. Later in the tourny, my strategy gradually changes to simply try to survive. This is why I would fold in this situation later in a tournament.

I would have raised to around 150 preflop. You really only want one caller IMO, although a reraise is obviously ideal.

[CrisBrown]

Hiya ZeeJustin,

<<Early in a tournament, my goal is to usually get a big stack so I have room to play with later in the tourny. Later in the tourny, my strategy gradually changes to simply try to survive.>>

*laughs* I play the exact opposite. Early on, I'm just trying to hang around. I don't put much stock in an early big stack. I want to have the big stack at the end. So I generally play tighter earlier, and more aggressively later on when the blinds (and pots) get bigger.

To each his/her own. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Cris

[ZeeJustin]

The people are so bad early on that you can play more hands and still have posotive EV. Also, you wan't to take advantage of the idiots that go all-in with gut shots on the flop, etc. On top of that, your stack is big enough compared to the blind early on that you can play as if you are playing a NL ring game, with relatively little risk of going bust.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

I just don't see folding here. It seems quite likely to me that the SB has Jx top pair, and the CO has a flush or straight draw. In such a case, you're still the favorite to win this pot around half the time. If you are against two pair and a draw your chances aren't good, of course, but nowhere near hopeless. And you're drawing real thin against a set and a flush draw, but again, this won't be the case terribly often.

If either of these guys were known tight players, things would be different. Of course, what hands could they hold now that are beating you that a super-tight player would call T100 with preflop? JJ and maybe 99 are it, with the second guy maybe on AhKh if he's also super-tight.

This is Party Poker. You can beat top pair. Don't fold.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[DOTTT]

I do see the posablilty of the small blind having a draw hand such a flush draw or even a straight draw. I'd put the limper on 99, or JJ. The player was in early position; I would also limp in and see the flop. He wouldn't necessarily push you all in pre flop because JJ and 99 aren't that strong especially after a raise. My opinion is that he has made his set, and that the small blind in on a draw. If that's the case, I would question the limper only calling and not pushing all in. It's a tough call here but I think I would fold.

[Nate tha' Great]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I think the diversity of opinion reflects one of the downsides of SNGs, especially at Party: you are often faced with game-deciding decisions in which your edge, one way or another, is going to be marginal, and you have essentially no info on your opponents. I take pretty good notes on my ring game opponents, and need to adopt the same practice for my SNGs.

I pushed all-in. I did not read the SB for a set because I didn't think he'd have bet it that way. The limper I was a little bit more worried about; my rationalization at the time was that if he had a set, he'd have pushed all-in instead of just called because he wouldn't want to give any third parties the chance to catch something and complicate the hand.

As it turned out, my reads were close to being correct, but I was a slight 'dawg nevertheless to the following hands, both of which called my all-in bet:

Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif (SB) (54%)
J /images/graemlins/spade.gif A /images/graemlins/spade.gif (CO) (7%)

(A /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) (39%)

I think I perhaps should have been a little bit more cognizant of straight+flush draws and (straight+flush+pair) draws that were favorites to complete a hand better than mine even if they were "behind" as of the flop. I also would have pushed all-in with a little less hesitation if I had the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

The turn and river came T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and I more than tripled up, had crippled two opponents, and went on to a relatively easy victory.

[Ignatius]

blinds are 15/30 [...] There are two limpers to me and I make it 100, thinking I'll get a couple callers who put me on a steal.
.
With an underbet of about half the pot, people will put you on exactly what you have: a big hand that you're value betting. A pot sized raise to 165 (or at least 150) would have been better play as it would deny small pair proper odds to outflop you.
.
You go all-in or fold?
.
Move in! Why you would even consider folding after a single bet and a call on a flop like this is beyond me. The most likely hands here are top pair for the SB (he probably would go for a check-raise with twopair or better) and a draw for the caller. The money is simply not deep enough to get away from aces here, which is another eason why you should have bet more preflop.

[Martin Aigner]

[ QUOTE ]
This is Party Poker. You can beat top pair. Don't fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg,

one of your best lines ever /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Best regards

Martin Aigner