Taking Clarkmeister's advice when you aren't Clarkmeister

[Brian]

Party 3/6. Dealt 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif on the Button. UTG and UTG+1 limp, and it's folded to me on the Button. Having just sat at the table a few moments ago, I have no reads on the players. However, I guess it's fair to assume that they either have no idea what's going on to be limping UTG, or they know exactly what they're doing. Probably the former. Anyways, this is normally an auto-fold for me with just 2 limpers, but after having seen Clarkmeister suggest that you limp with 75s in this situation, I decided to give it a shot. Whoops, forgot one thing. I'm not as good as Clarkmeister.

SB completes, BB checks. 5 to the Flop for 5sb.

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Okay, foldarama time. But then all 4 check to me. I take a second to analyze the situation... How many people check top pair? Not many. Medium pocket pairs are a possibility. If someone is slowplaying then I'm sure to hear from them soon... But since the pot is so small should I just check along here and give the pot up? Or is this the prime opportunity to semi-bluff? Wait, semi-bluffs don't work against 4 opponents...

Well, I decided to bet. Everyone calls but the BB. Great... What should I have expected.

Turn: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Well, that's a pretty decent card to fall off. Under the impression that almost no one checks top pair, I am not very worried about 3 Queens. And, when they all check to me again, I figure I must bet. So I do. Results later...

-Brian

[Bob T.]

That is exactly how I would have played it, without as much thought.

[JasonM]

I would have played it the same way. I think you have the best hand here, but I get the feeling you got rivered or outkicked. I would be hoping just to take it down on the turn.

[slavic]

Hi Brian-

It's not a semi-bluff it's a value bet.

You bet the turn they all fold.

Or you bet 1 of them raises and you pitch it saving yourself 1 BB on the river.

Value either way.

[Brian]

Hi Slavic,

I think it's a bit of both (semi-bluff and value bet). I mean, I am betting because I think my hand is best and I cannot afford to give any free cards. So in that respect, it's a value bet. But I'd also prefer that everyone fold, so in that respect it's a semi-bluff. I mean, when you already have a pair, obviously you aren't ever really semi-bluffing.

A value bet, by definition, is a bet that has EV when called. However, if I am called here, I don't feel particularly good about my 2nd pair, no kicker, since there aren't any draws on the board. I definitely mis-used the term semi-bluff though.

-Brian

[Brian]

Hi everyone,

Welcome to Bizzaro World. I mean, goodbye from Bizzaro World. If the light is green, you stop; if the light is red, you go. And when you Flop top pair, you check. Heres how it all went down:

Turn: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

All check to me, and I bet. SB calls, UTG raises, UTG+1 and I fold, SB calls.

River: K /images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB checks, UTG bets, SB calls.

UTG has Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif
SB has J /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

After the hand, I couldn't help but think to myself "There I am, paying off all the idiots who limp UTG with QJo. Hell, I was even further behind the SB on the Flop than I was the guy who Flopped top pair!". I'm happy that I played it well, but I have certainly been running into a lot of kicker problems recently, specifically with Axs. I know it takes a lot of feel to know when your Ace is good, but I know that when I have Axs, the Flop has an Ace, and it's checked to me, I should usually bet. But I've found myself getting called down by a hand like AJ the whole way who never raises me. I think I may play Axs too much, but heres my general rule of thumb with it:

UTG: Fold it unless the table is extremely loose passive (which I never really know since I play multiple tables, so I almost always fold this UTG)
EP: Limp after a limper, fold otherwise.
MP: Same as EP.
LP: Raise with it first in, limp otherwise.

Sounds about right to me, but let me know if you guys play it differently.

-Brian

[lil']

I think you played the hand very well.

[chesspain]

This would have been an easy fold for me, with only two limpers. I would only play this hand on the button or CO, and only after many limpers. You really only have one way to go, which is for a flush, meaning that you'ld like to get in cheap and have at least 5:1 pot odds immediately to try to spike the four-flush (or the much less likely rainbow, openended straight draw).

Maybe Clarkmeister can make money with this hand, or with nearly any two cards, but I know I'm not that good /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I think you played the rest of hand fine.

[ElSapo]

Two limpers and you call with 86s?

This seems, uh... Ok, I don't like it. Not at all. But if Clark says do it, and if a whole bunch of other posters say they like the hand (which they did), then it's obvious I don't get this.

I get the opportunity all the time to limp with one-gappers after two limpers. But I don't do it. Why is this a good call? How much can I possibly be giving up?

[rkiray]

Actually the best flop for him would be 57x (x= 4 or 9 being exceptionally great). When you play medium suited connectors you would rather get a straight than a flush. With a flush you need to worry about someone else with a bigger flush.

[rkiray]

I believe Clark likes it because he's on the button. He's a big fan of position.

[Sarge85]

I'm with the Toad here. Why come in this hand with only 2 limpers?

Rest of the hand seemed was good.

[Luke]

I believe Clark likes it because he's on the button. He's a big fan of position.

I think we all should be big fans of position.

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Brian,

Your limp in this hand and the limp that Clark suggested making are a bit different. In the 75s hand, he suggested limping after a weak MP open-limper and another weak limper. In this hand, UTG and UTG+1 limped. There's definitely a difference between the two.

Postflop, you played well. Hopefully you layed down to the check-raise.

[Brian]

Hi Guy,

What exactly is the difference between a weak limper in MP and an unknown who limps UTG when you have 86s? Was part of the reason Clark advocated playing this hand so that you could steal on the Flop the majority of the time if both the weak limpers missed? Or so that you could chase your straight or flush without having to pay a lot of money? Here are the 4 factors Clark described to make this hand playable:

1. You are presumably a winning player. | You'll have to trust me on this one! :P
2. You presumably have good game selection. The fact that you are in a game where 2 people limp to you would seem to reinforce the fact that not only is this a good table, you are against poor players, since most decent players will be open raising in early position, or isolating a limper if they are behind him. | I pay a lot of attention to my game selection. Here we have someone limping UTG. I rarely do this, and not many others do, either. As Clark said, most decent players will be open raising in early position. Therefore, like I said it my original post, it is fair to assume that they probably aren't any good.
3. You have outstanding position. | I am still on the Button.
4. You are unlikely to get raised preflop. | This also still applies.

Maybe I am misinterperting what Clark said, but I think he would play this hand here as well. I'm not as good as Clark post-Flop, but I am never going to be if I keep playing, as he described, "weak-tight ABC poker".

-Brian

[ElSapo]

I think there's a large difference between "weak-tight ABC poker" and limping with trash. And I think 86s after two limpers is hitting that area.

I mean no direspect to anyone -- I know Clark is more experienced than I, I know my post-flop (and pre) skills need some work, and I know I've got a ton to learn. But limping with 86s after two limpers just doesn't seem like a good idea to me. In fact, it seems like a bad idea.

Maybe with more limpers. Maybe 89s. Maybe some other stuff. But 86s isn't just marginal, it's just... Well, it isn't necessary to play.

Are the players weak? I dunno. They're not necessarily weak just because they limped. I limp early with hands like 77-99, and KJs. I'm not gonna raise from there, but I'm not laying it down, and 86s is in pretty bad shape against a few of those hands. What do you do when the flop is 6-high and UTG limped with 99?

I'm not saying your play was bad post-flop. But I don't think you need to play this hand - it just seems like adding a very marginal hand in a situation where the payout, should you hit, wont justify the limp.

I also think, given many of the games on Party, the line of "so your more observant players wont try and steal when rags flop" is no good here either. Many of them - and you already said they were weak - are not observing.

Show them a hand. Show them a good hand. They'll give you their money, no problem. But 86s just seems like you're trying to force the issue.

As I said in my earlier post though, I'm open to hearing reasons why it is a good limp. But thus far I remain unconvinced.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
How much can I possibly be giving up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not much, if anything.

[Bob T.]

To raise AA preflop all of the time also, but noone really questions that when surprisingly, you raise AA preflop, and you end up losing the hand.

No play in poker, guarantees that you will win the hand 100% of the time. I think that Brian played this hand well, and that if he plays like this a lot of the time, he will probably profit a little from playing in this situation.

There is certainly an argument to be made for checking the turn in this situation, you would think that at least one of all those callers has something, although I probably would bet.

But next time you are on the button, and you flop trips/ace kicker, or even a full house, aren't you going to be happy that you reinforced into these players that it is OK to call, call, call you. On this hand you invested 2 big bets, next time you collect a half dozen.

There are at least two reasons to play this hand. First, because with this collection of opponents, and this position, you can make a small profit with this hand. Secondly, by playing a hand like this, if you end up showing down, it will make it more difficult for your opponents to play accurately against you.

[MaxPower]

Bob T is my new favorite poster.

People are constantly arguing that you should not play a hand because it is "marginal" or because it goes down in value in a multi-way pot.

Well if I'm playing 3/6 and I throw a hand away that can win on average 30 cents and I throw away two of them per hour, I am throwing away a lot of money at the end of the year. If I think I can beat the rake and win a few cents with a hand, I think I should play it.

The same goes for hands that lose value in multiway pots. Tell me when the value becomes negative and I'll stop playing them.

That being said, I do think it is possible that some hands that are normally profitable in a low stakes game would not win enough to beat the rake in micro-limit game.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Secondly, by playing a hand like this, if you end up showing down, it will make it more difficult for your opponents to play accurately against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this reason is highly overrated at low limits.

[Bob T.]

I think this reason is highly overrated at low limits.

I think you can almost disregard it below 2-4, but I think by the time you get to most 5-10 games, I think it is part of the game.

[Joe Tall]

I think you played this hand perfectly.

[ QUOTE ]
Or is this the prime opportunity to semi-bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't think of this as a semi-bluff. It's a value bet. You're not bluffing as you mayb have the best hand at this point.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Clarkmeister]

You played it exactly how I would have for what that's worth.

That's definitely a good spot to limp in.

[Clarkmeister]

I made some reasonable assumptions and actually posted the preflop situation only in Medium Stakes for those who wish to see what the posters there think of the limp.