Party Poker NL Competition

[pilamsolo]

I recently started playing NL online at Party, both $50 and $100 buy in games, and I'm wondering what other players think about the competition in these games. I consider myself a decent no-limit player, sometimes I'm too aggressive but pretty good at recognizing when to switch gears. The games I've been in at Party seem to be particularly easy to beat, with many passive players that will, for example, play Kxs, and call all-in with their flush draw. Sure I've been beat a couple of times on the river, but I've found that overall these games seem to be very lucrative. Is this a common sentiment?

[Acesover8s]

Yes, these games are very lucrative. The competition is horrible. They are also no fun and you could program a computer or a child to beat them.

[eastbay]

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Yes, these games are very lucrative. The competition is horrible. They are also no fun and you could program a computer or a child to beat them.

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When you say "very lucrative," how much can an expert make per hour?

I would agree that the competition must not be great, considering I am up after 5000 hands at the $25 tables. Those are my first 5000 hands of poker ever.

[Acesover8s]

I honestly have no idea. I am a poor NLHE player and usually my play in the Party games involves very little thought. I am averaging 11$ an hour in the 25$ game and $18 an hour in the $100. I have never played in the $50 game. I would assume the better players here like Guy, Jay, or Crock could probably get 2-3 times these numbers.

[crockpot]

competition? what competition?

[Foldarama_City]

Believe it or not but I've had a very bad time playing NL at Party recently. I've made a healthy profit playing NL at stars and prima but party I'm down money. I'm probably just going through a bad run where everyone is hitting their flushes on the river or hitting a set against my aces or kings.

But I'm wondering if I need to adjust my strategy. I generally bet the pot or just under it. Should I be going all-in more often to eliminate more of the drawers. I also raise 4 x the BB preflop for all preflop raises - with a reraise preflop I normally raise 3 or 4 times what the original raiser went with. Any thoughts?

[Fistdantilus]

Don't try to bet people OUT of the pot on party: it just won't work. Think of betting on party as massive value bets. My motto on party is: when you have the nuts, go all-in because some idiot is going to call you. I'm not kidding either.

I had the same problem as you, and the solution was to bet less when i had a speculative hand. On the flop I still bet a little over the pot, but on the turn and river I slow down. Why? If the first bet didn't scare them out, they are coming along the whole way. It sounds very dumb, but put in massive bets when you WANT to be called.

Your raising preflop seems fine.

Fistdantilus

[Foldarama_City]

Thanks for the advice. Just clarifying by what you mean by speculative hand. Would you consider two pair with two flush cards on board speculative? Also, how much would you overbet the flop? Its something I dont do and maybe I should seeing the pot is so small at that stage.

[Acesover8s]

I had a very bad run playing PLO at Party after making money on every other site. I realized eventually that my problem was that everyone would slowplay their strong hands and I'm from the school of, "you check? OK, I bet." So, I was constantly running myself into sandbaggers.

This may or may not help.

[Fistdantilus]

By "speculative", i mean overpairs or TPTK. 2 pair is fine for larger bets, as long as it isn't bottom 2 pair. A *very* common scenario for me goes like this:

AKo raise $2 preflop, get 2-4 callers
Flop comes A T 5 rainbow
EP I checkraise, LP I bet/raise. I usually bet 1-2$ over the pot; just enough to distort the pot odds. 1-2 callers
Turn comes blank.

Here's where if you bet, bet less (1/4 to 1/3 pot). If you don't bet (which is quite possibly the correct play against good players), you *will* face a large bet into you on the river. Betting the pot here would put you nearly all-in, or close enough where you can't fold to a raise, so a little bet seems like the best play (if you want to avoid the big river bet by them).

I feel this works because people on party can't fold. So, preflop you get the better players out of the hand (or know where you stand with them), on the flop you overbet the pot to make drawing incorrect, on the turn/river you get a little money in the pot if you are ahead and to slow them down if they are ahead (but not betting so much that you can't get away from the hand).

Just my thoughts.

Fistdantilus

[CoinLaundry-CptC0ckwell]

I've found my stay at the $50 NL tables lucrative, but not as much as another 2+2er I've seen there. His strategy is to wait for the nuts and push it all in... This actually works 'cause people call, but not everyone calls out of their own poor play of the game, they call out of the poor play of others. I just play good ol' aggressive poker, and I do alright.

I've spent a lot of time lamenting some "bad beats" I've taken on Party. These beats seem to come from good players with bad cards. I believe the root of the issue comes from a> implied odds and b> the blinds:buy-in. People call. They'll call with a just about anything. It's nearly impossible to stop players from drawing to the ace-high flush. If you have TPTK and they're on a four-flush and you barely overbet the pot (which actually leaves them with odds to call anyway) and they have another player behind them, they'll almost *always* call. Chances are, that third guy's gonna call or he has some triple-reverse backdoor whammy-jammy draw that he feels is justified due to the fact that he has a bettor and a caller he can act behind. Each and every reasonably good player knows or thinks that if they do make their draw, they're getting paid in full. With 50 big blinds in your starting stack, the money gets in there pretty quickly with just a few reasonable-sized bets. The only thing you can do is make good bets when you're pretty sure you have the best of it and start making tough laydowns when someone completes a straight or a flush draw. Here are two example hands:

OC, I have AKo. UTG calls, folds to MP who raises minimum to $2, LMP calls, I raise to $7 (short of a pot-sized raise), folds to a notably (noted) bad player in the SB who calls, all others fold. Flop misses me. He checks, I bet about 3/4 of the pot, he calls. Turn's a blank. He checks, I check. River's an ace, he checks, I bet half the pot, he calls and turns up A5o for two pair, ace and rag. I lost a bunch of money.

I'm in MP with KQo. One limper (a notably good player - I took notes on him while I was folded, he doesn't know anything about me as I am a folding station and haven't played a hand) to me, I limp, two others limp. Flop's KcQd3c... Blinds and EP limper check to me, I bet just short of twice the small pot, about $10, trying to shake flush draws. All fold to the reasonably good EP player who calls ~10:16. Turn is a rag. He checks, I bet ~$20, he calls. The river's another club, a rag. He sets me all in for just short of $20. Now, with 5:19 (~1:4) no one's taking their hand this far and folding, especially a bad player, so this is where the hand starts and stops making sense. I'm *certain* this guy did not make that call on the flop with a flush draw and no players to act between us. I'm sure he knows I wasn't betting a flush draw like that. He wasn't calling with a pair in hopes of making a set and he wasn't slowplaying a set with a flush draw on the board. I figure him for AK, KQ, or KJ, all of which either lose to or split with my hand. I call and he turns up a slowrolled AKo and I take a huge pot.

There are a lot of bad and hyper-aggressive players on Party who will get into a pot like this with KJ, KT, and I've even seen K9. They'll play their top pair no kicker all the way to the river. This guy had no idea who I was and hoped he'd get me with TPTK while I limped with KJ or KT and went nuts with top pair.

Once you can figure out who the players are on Party, who's calling with reason and whose money is waiting for you to take it, you'll do really well... There are a lot of players waiting to double you up with the nuts. Also, implied odds are HUGE on the site, so figure out who calls no matter what and make sure you can keep them involved in a pot with you if you want to make loose calls.

[Zag]

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and I'm from the school of, "you check? OK, I bet." So, I was constantly running myself into sandbaggers.

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Well, yeah. This just tells you that some of the people on Party were playing correctly (perhaps accidentally, but correctly nonetheless). You can't afford to be this predictable, because good players will take advantage. My favorite note to put on anyone is "Bets when checked to" and I try to sit on their left. On Party, this is especially profitable because I am check-raising not only you, but also all the fish who called you.

Generally, if you are betting (about a pot-sized bet) when checked to, then 2/3 of the time you make this bet, you should have a real hand. If there are several people in, as is usually the case on Party, your percentages of real hands should go up.

I started making significant money on Party when I completely eliminated the bluff from my repertoire. I have added back some semi-bluffs for position and control, but mostly I bet for value, and mostly I get called.

[Acesover8s]

Agree with most of what you say until:

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Also, implied odds are HUGE on the site, so figure out who calls no matter what and make sure you can keep them involved in a pot with you if you want to make loose calls.

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There are virtually no implied odds due to the tiny stack sizes involved. The players who will make these bad calls rarely have a large enough stack to make it worthwhile.

[Foldarama_City]

Do you think there may be a case for making big strategy adjustments for these loose games. I'm thinking if you've got a lot of callers who call even big raises preflop maybe raising loses its value.

Maybe in games like this we should be treating AA and KK almost like small pairs (ie. folding if you dont hit a set especially if there is action). This way you be decreasing the times you lose all your stack and increasing your implied odds when you hit your monster. When I hit a set with AA or KK it's very rare to scoop a big pot because no one else has big cards like aces or kings because I have them all. Also, because you were the raiser preflop people fold when they see those scare cards.

I've never played like that - I'm just theorizing. Any thoughts?

It brings to mind some other questions I've been thinking about. For example, should I be raising with TT? Limping seems best to me because of the implied odds and its vulnerability to overcards.

[Zag]

You certainly do not want to limp with AA and KK as a standard practice. They are still the two best drawing hands as well as the two best made hands. The only situation in which AA is not way ahead (preflop) is when it is against another AA as well as a big field of drawing hands. Even then, it is not much behind. Against 9 random hands, if you are all in preflop, AA expects to win 30% of the time. Therefore, you are expecting to win $3 for every $1 you put in (i.e. for every $10 total that goes in).

That said, you still have to be prepared to pitch it post flop, if there is significant action and you haven't improved. Do you think that, by not raising preflop, you could then outplay your opponents significantly enough to earn back the expectation that you gave up? I doubt anyone has that much of an overlay.

[Foldarama_City]

Yeah I think you're right and sanity must prevail. I just start to think strange thoughts when my big pairs get cracked 10 times in a row.

[Graham]

I'm thinking if you've got a lot of callers who call even big raises preflop maybe raising loses its value...Maybe in games like this we should be treating AA and KK almost like small pairs (ie. folding if you dont hit a set especially if there is action)


Eek!!! Don't do this - just send your money to me instead.

Think of it this way - if the callers are that loose, just use the option that NL gives you and shove all-in preflop. The only thing that can go wrong then is that you DON'T get called.