KQs in the CO - two pair on the board, your move.

[BigEndian]

I'm playing two tables, so no reads on the players. I assume they're typical 1/2 LL.

Party Poker 1/2 (9 handed)
BigEndian has Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif and is CO

BigEndian raises, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls

Flop(8 SB): J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, BB checks, BigEndian bets, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds

Turn(5 BB): 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

BigEndian bets, Button raises, BigEndian calls

River(9 BB): J/images/graemlins/heart.gif

What's your normal play? Why? Do you play this any other way? Why?

- Groove

[Sarge85]

Check-fold?

I'm sure there is an argument for betting the flop - 3 flush, gutshot, so you'll call a bet anyway - so bet yourself right?

Opponent made a play on the turn, Jack certain doesn't help you. I can't see calling this down. You can beat a bluff (maybe) but that's all.

[GuyOnTilt]

Why are you calling his turn raise???

[BigEndian]

What would you expect the button to cold-call with? JJ is a possibility. An 8x is unlikely unless it's 88 who's odds are reduced with two on the board. I didn't beleive he had JJ or an 8. Maybe AJ, KJ or QJ. With AJ I'm good to reload and see the river. So there are only two hands that I can think of that put me in a horrible spot.

- Groove

[BigEndian]

I can't see calling this down

Me either, I think that's the worst of the three options.

- Groove

[Yeknom58]

Calling the turn raise was pretty bad as you could easily be drawing dead. I might actually be suprised if it's as good as A8 at this limit. Lets put it to you this way I was playing a 10-20 the other day and I saw someone call 3 cold with Q6s.

On the river I would Check fold about 99.99% of the time because even if he only has an 8 I'm sure he'll call your bet anyway and if he has a J you're done.

[BigEndian]

It's possible he has an 8, but I just don't find it likely. He probably would have waiting until the river to pop me - happy that I was betting his pot for him.

Very real hands that he could also have are Axs and Kxs where he just went four to the flush. Or maybe face cards in the same scenario.

I see the dangers but I didn't fold simply because I didn't want the player to think they could run over me and I thought there was a real enough chance that he still didn't have a hand yet. I have a note next to every weak-tight player I come across.

I've been leading the whole way, and now he pops me. If I fold now, after I raised PF and it's heads-up, I'm putting a sign on my back to be run over imo.

- Groove

[GuyOnTilt]

At the 1/2 level, I'd expect the Button to cold-call with a lot of hands, especially since he views your raise as a steal attempt. Your turn call is bad. The only hand you're ahead of here is a semi-bluff diamond draw raise with no pair, and only if it's a non-nut draw. Find better places to invest your money than this.

[squiffy]

Come on. He is on the button, with position, at 1-2 Party. He could easily be calling your preflop raise with A8s, AJs, K8s, KJs, 89s, 78s. And people call bets all the time with second pair at 1-2, making it very easy for him to have three 8's.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I see the dangers but I didn't fold simply because I didn't want the player to think they could run over me and I thought there was a real enough chance that he still didn't have a hand yet. I have a note next to every weak-tight player I come across.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you rather be a player who loses money chasing with nothing? Button sees you betting all the way, and then he pops you on the turn. Even if all of your outs are good, the pot isn't big enough to give you the odds to chase.



[ QUOTE ]
I've been leading the whole way, and now he pops me. If I fold now, after I raised PF and it's heads-up, I'm putting a sign on my back to be run over imo.


[/ QUOTE ]

If he caught any part of the flop, be thankful he let you know now, so that you didn't chase without the odds. So what if he thinks you bet the flop with nothing...if so, you got the advertising value of a bluff without having to pay a river bet. Consequently, the next time you bet and you have the goods, maybe you'll earn extra bets when he tries to run over you with less than the nuts!

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
What's your normal play? Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy fold to the turn raise. I don't have anything and can't even beat Ace-high.

I'd almost always fold here. In very rare cases against opponents who always raise a turned flush draw and would have done something different with a pair on the flop, I'll once in a blue moon 3-bet the turn and lead the river w/ any non-diamond. But that's a very rare variation play. This is an easy fold.

[pilamsolo]

You have an easy check/fold here. The only hand that he would even consider laying down is 33 (even then he would probably call), and no way he's laying down an 8. Just out of curiousity, why did you call the turn bet? It seems to me your almost certainly drawing dead.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
What would you expect the button to cold-call with? JJ is a possibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. How about any two big cards, any two suited, any two connected, any Ace, any King? That's a good start.

How many times has someone sucked out on you on the river and your reaction is "WTF? He called two cold w/ that garbage pre-flop and took that crap all the way to the river?" I can tell you that at Party 10/20 and 15/30 I find myself thinking that all the time. Maybe it's just that all the tight solid players are playing 1/2 there, but I doubt it.

A lot of posters here do what you're doing here - assuming your opponent plays w/ calling standards that are similar to yours. That's rarely going to be true.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
It's possible he has an 8, but I just don't find it likely. He probably would have waiting until the river to pop me - happy that I was betting his pot for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a game where you, a presumably solid opponent, is calling a turn raise w/ King-high on this board. And why is it that he wouldn't raise the turn w/ an 8?

[ QUOTE ]
I see the dangers but I didn't fold simply because I didn't want the player to think they could run over me

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a much better strategy to counter that. Fold when you don't have a hand, 3-bet when you do.

[ QUOTE ]
I have a note next to every weak-tight player I come across.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a note next to all the guys who call turn raises w/ absolutely nothing.

[ QUOTE ]
I've been leading the whole way, and now he pops me. If I fold now, after I raised PF and it's heads-up, I'm putting a sign on my back to be run over imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you end up showing down your KQ here, what sign do you think you're putting on your back? I'll put it this way. I'd put a note on you, and it wouldn't say "tough player."

[BigEndian]

Interesting responses.

I felt this was a different scenario being heads-up, I still feel this way.

At any rate...

I bet the river and he folded. Stunner. He didn't have an 8, he didn't have a J. He may not have had the four to a flush, but that's what I'm guessing he had. Maybe even the same hand as myself.

A lot of the time, sure, I would fold on the turn. This time I wanted to make a statement to not get run over and that my bets don't always mean I'm sitting on solid gold. Even if he had called, I would have felt fine about it.

I'll re-read this in a few days and try to take it from a different perspective. But I'm really baffled right now as to why people are adamant against this play. Maybe people get so used to playing ABC poker on multiple tables?

- Groove

[BigEndian]

If you end up showing down your KQ here, what sign do you think you're putting on your back? I'll put it this way. I'd put a note on you, and it wouldn't say "tough player."

I would invite that tag to be put on me. Wouldn't you?

- Groove

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe people get so used to playing ABC poker on multiple tables?

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is, most times, ABC poker will get you the most money at these tables.