AA in the SB.

[ThingDo]

I have AA in the SB and its folded to an idiot on the button who raises. I 3 bet and button caps.


Flop is AK8r. I check BB bets button raises I 3 bet, BB folds button calls.


Turn is T putting two spades on board I bet he calls.


River is an offsuit J I bet he raises I call. How bout it?

[BigEndian]

Looks pretty straight-forward. Someone might argue to check-call the river, but I would bet out.

[chesspain]

Unless the button "idiot" has huge testicles, I'ld say that you're looking at either QQ, AQ, KQ, or QJ.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop is AK8r. I check BB bets button raises I 3 bet, BB folds button calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the time you should wait till the turn to checkraise.

Stu

[Mike Gallo]

Looks pretty straight-forward. Someone might argue to check-call the river, but I would bet out.

Umm..did you see the board? Anyone with a singleton Queen wins. Sure he has top set, however Broadway stares him in the eyes.

[JoeU]

Stu,

I don't think the check/raise is that bad of a play on the flop. I think it is almost 100% that the button will bet here, it just happened to be a bonus that the BB started the action. If he was caught on the river, then that's just tough luck. I'm just not a big fan of slowplaying on the flop, unless its quads or a flopped nut flush depending on the type of board. I also think that once he's made this play, he should be leading into every street. If anyone else has a different opinion, I'd be interested in hearing it. It seems that big hands like this are often slowplayed on the flop. I think alot of money is sacrificed because of this.

Joe

[Aces McGee]

I think going for the check-raise on the flop is fine, but once it's bet and raised in front of him, I think it's a great opportunity to smoothcall and checkraise the turn.

Aces McGee

[Mike Gallo]

I'm just not a big fan of slowplaying on the flop, unless its quads or a flopped nut flush depending on the type of board.

Joe U,

Excellent point. People expect a player to slow play a big hand, so bet out.

Nothing appears more dubious than someone who caps preflop and then checks when the action gets to them on the flop.

[BigEndian]

I did, there's only three players and one folded on the flop. I'm not very worried about a Q, but won't be disappointed if my opponent has one either.

- Groove

[Brian]

Hi JoeU,

I agree 100%. I would also check-raise the Flop every time. Check-calling the Flop and then going for a check-raise on the Turn is too risky. Often good players will check it through on the Turn after raising pre-Flop and betting the Flop if they are unimproved and aren't worried about free cards. For instance, if I were the Button and had QQ here, I would check the Turn if checked to, because there aren't any free cards I am worried about giving. Both overcards are already out there.

As others have said, sometimes the best deception is to play straightforward.

[EDIT]: Also guys, keep in mind that when the pot grows large (which it has) and you have a monster hand, your #1 priority shifts from putting more money into the pot to making sure you win the pot. I think check-3 betting here is good.

-Brian

[Aces McGee]

I agree against good players.

But the original poster referred to the button as an idiot. I think it's highly likely he'll bet the turn if he has any sort of hand, which I think it's pretty clear he does.

Aces McGee

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing appears more dubious than someone who caps preflop and then checks when the action gets to them on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Our hero did not capp it pre-flop. That honor went to the button.

Stu

[Mike Gallo]

Our hero did not capp it pre-flop. That honor went to the button

I did not mean on this particular hand.

I meant in general nothing makes my spider sence tingle more than someone who raises preflop and then checks when action gets to them on the flop.

[ThingDo]

MG... are you suggesting that I should have bet out on the flop? I'm not arguing, just curious because I thought there were a few ways I could have played this hand. The button in this hand is going to call with his hand regardless of strength and regardless of the amount of bets that are going in, so I want to charge him as much as I can. I thought that checkraising was the best option because I was not certain that the BB would raise me if I bet. I didn't have a read on him so I thought that was the best possible option. If I just call the button might just check his hand on the turn. I don't think I can risk giving him free cards when I want him to call with his 3 outer.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Also guys, keep in mind that when the pot grows large (which it has) and you have a monster hand, your #1 priority shifts from putting more money into the pot to making sure you win the pot. I think check-3 betting here is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good advice when you have a Good or Marginal hand. Our Hero's hand is closer to Monster. Please take into consideration that these guys are already making it expensive for themselves to see the turn card so its not like thier getting a free ride. Let them bet your hand for you.

Stu

[me454555]

What could the button be holding that makes any sort of sense?

Hands you cap w/preflop AA, KK, QQ, AK(maybe), JJ(possibly but unlikely), or a grossly mislplayed AQ. Rule out AA b/c there are 3 Aces on the board.

When the flop comes AK8, what hand can you reraise with? my guess is that it rules out QQ, and JJ. Leaving AK or KK or the remote possibility of AQ. With just a flat call on the turn, and then a river raise, I think you can rule out KK and AK. Both hands probably would have raised the turn or called the river, not call the turn and raise the river.

I think i'd have to put him on AQ making the mistake of capping the preflop to take control of the hand. I like your call, but I'd be curious to find out what he held.

[ThingDo]

Thanks for the response me45. One quick thing. The BB capped, not the button. He can raise with a very very wide range of hands here on the button after its folded to him. The fact that he called 2 more bets cold to him after he raises tells me nothing, because he is in fact an idiot.

[Brian]

It wasn't such a monster when a Ten and a Jack fell off, was it? If the BB has QJ, JT, or QT, he would be correct to call on the Flop if ThingDo only smooth-called, getting 8.5:1 on an 11:1 shot, but with implied odds he'll easily make up for the money lost. However, if ThingDo re-raises, it would not be correct for him to call with those hands.

Now, obviously, we have no way of knowing what the BB has. But, I would like him out of the pot.

-Brian

[Brian]

ThingDo,

In your post, it says that the Button capped... If this is not true it may change the way the entire hand is played.

-Brian

[ThingDo]

Apparently my EDIT didn't go thru. I mistyped the hand, and I edited but it didnt... well edit. The BB capped this hand.

[me454555]

[ QUOTE ]
The BB capped, not the button. He can raise with a very very wide range of hands here on the button after its folded to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

In your post, you said the button capped preflop. Did you mean to say that the BB capped and button called 2 cold?

[FR_Mainiac]

I would put the button on KQ also.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
It wasn't such a monster when a Ten and a Jack fell off, was it?

[/ QUOTE ]

IF it is behind it has plenty of redraw value.

[ QUOTE ]
Now, obviously, we have no way of knowing what the BB has. But, I would like him out of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Do you think he is more likely to call two on the flop or two on the turn?

Stu

[Brian]

Hi Stu,

After ThingDo re-raises, the point is moot. If he folds, then that is fine. We have accomplished what we wanted. If he calls, that is fine also, because he is making a mistake by calling.

For sake of argument, lets say that we know that the BB has a hand like JT, JQ, or QT, i.e. a gutshot. If you smooth call on the Flop, your opponent is *correct* to call. That is bad. Whenever your opponent plays correctly, according to the Fundamental Theorem of Poker, you lose. So, we must be in agreeance here. If he has a gutshot, and you smoothcall, and he calls, he is playing correctly, and that is bad for you.

Now, lets say you raise there. One of two things will happen. He will either fold, which he is correct to do, and which is fine by you, or he will call, which he is incorrect to do, which is even better. You are raising because you want him to fold, but after you raise, you are actually rooting for him to *call*.

-Brian

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
It wasn't such a monster when a Ten and a Jack fell off, was it?

[/ QUOTE ]

What the turn and river cards happened to be doesn't change how much of a monster this hand was on the flop. But you know that.

[Ulysses]

You're thinking about this too narrowly. The objective is to maximize how much you win. One component of that involves making this one opponent make a mistake on the flop, which is what you are focusing on. But you also have to consider the possibilities of sacrificing a bit of immediate "profit" in exchange for things like building a much bigger pot and potentially having your opponents make much bigger mistakes on later streets.

[Brian]

Hi Ulysses,

How would you have played the hand then? Would you have check and smooth called the Flop, and then check-raised the Turn? If so, you are likely shutting the BB out by doing that, which means you have gained 1 extra small bet by check-calling the Flop. Of course, who is to say that the BB won't call 2 bets back to him on the Flop, since he has already bet? Or whos to say that the would even call the raise from the Button? You could gain a small bet by smooth calling, or you could gain a small bet by re-raising. It's impossible to tell what hand the BB has and what he will or won't call.

And, if you think he might have a hand like a gutshot, then certainly the play is to re-raise. He's getting the odds to call a single raise, but not 2. Does he have a gutshot? I'd say almost certainly not, since he bet the Flop. But that was just an example as to why re-raising would be better.

I'm curious how you would have played the hand and how many more bets you would have gained than someone like I, who thinks that check-re-raising the Flop is a good play. I'm very open to being proved wrong here.

-Brian

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
How would you have played the hand then?

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually hadn't really looked at the play of the hand when I made my response to you. My main point was that when I flop a set of Aces on this board, I'm less concerned about maximizing my chances of winning the pot and more concerned about maximizing the size of the pot.

Anyway, with this hand, I'd just bet the flop and see what happened from there. That would often involve 3-betting the flop and leading the turn.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious how you would have played the hand and how many more bets you would have gained than someone like I, who thinks that check-re-raising the Flop is a good play. I'm very open to being proved wrong here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check-raising the flop is not wrong. You should do it often when you have a monster so that they will believe you when you checkraise the flop other times for other purposes.

However, in this situation, I would checkraise on the turn more often than I would the flop becuase I do not see this hand as all that vulnerable. I see a situation where I can smooth call and then call a capped flop with-out ever tipping off the strength of my hand.

Stu

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
For sake of argument, lets say that we know that the BB has a hand like JT, JQ, or QT, i.e. a gutshot

[/ QUOTE ]

Do that hand analysis thing again supposing the BigBlind has KK or AK.

Stu

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
I meant in general nothing makes my spider sence tingle more than someone who raises preflop and then checks when action gets to them on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Often times you can get a hand like 22 in the big blind with 5 or so limpers. When its your option, raise. If you don't spike your set, and you check, the field will often check it around becuase your check looks dubious. Your preflop raise from the Bigblind is a free card play to the turn.

Stu

[Brian]

Hi Stu,

Assuming he has AK or KK, then I see no reason not to 3 bet the Flop here. He will surely cap and then bring the button along for even more money. 3 betting here works out better than smooth calling if he has AK, KK, or any gutshot...

-Brian

[ThingDo]

Button showed QQ for the run run straight.

[Stu Pidasso]

If he caps, the button would have to decide if he wants to call two bets. The button may decide to fold.

If you smooth call, he will three bet it. The button will very like call one more bet and may even cap it for you. On the turn the BB leads out and you get to check raise them both on a more expensive street.

Stu

[me454555]

Take his name and play at his table all the time. IF he would reraise the flop w/both an A and K on the board after it was capped, hes not a very good player.

[Mike Gallo]

Thing,

MG... are you suggesting that I should have bet out on the flop?

If you have a maniac to act after you why not bet get raised call and then check raise the turn or lead out again and hope to go to war.

I like to play fast and hard. I hardly slow play against a player willing to give me action.