Bet questions in structured stud

[Lottery Larry]

what is the typical forced bet amount when you have structured betting in stud, such as $5/10? Is it 1/2 of the small bet, or $2 for 5/10 and $5 for 10/20?

What is the typical time charge at 10/20- 1/2 a small bet?

Also, to clarify- when a pair shows on fourth street, ANYONE can raise by the big bet amount? Or is it only the pair that can increase it, then others can matching the higher amount in raises? For example, if I show 3's and I only open or call for $10, can someone else raise it $20 to $30?

[Andy B]

I think that the ideal structure for stud is one where the bring-in is 1/3 of the small bet, and the ante is half of the bring-in. Such a structure is used in $30/60, which has a $5 ante and $10 bring-in. If the 1/3 SB bring-in isn't convenient, I think that a 1/4 SB bring-in is infinitely superior to a 1/2 SB bring-in. An example of this is $20/40 with a $3 ante and a $5 bring-in. The standard structures for the games you ask about:

$5/10--$.50 ante, $2 bring-in
$10/20--$1 ante, $3 bring-in

The only $10/20 game I've ever played in, at Foxwoods, was raked. At Foxwoods, $20/40 is raked, too. They have a $4 cap.

When there is an open pair on fourth street, anyone may bet or raise the double amount. Once there has been a maximum raise, however, all succeeding bets must be of the maximum amount. As an example, let's say that we're playing $10/20 and I pair my door card. I decide to just bet $10, which is something I'll do every forty hours or so. Someone raises to $20. It comes back to me, and I raise to $40. If the other guy wants to raise again, he must make it $60.

[Lottery Larry]

thanks for confirming my understanding about the double bet.

i have a question about this "I think that the ideal structure for stud is one where the bring-in is 1/3 of the small bet, and the ante is half of the bring-in." "If the 1/3 SB bring-in isn't convenient, I think that a 1/4 SB bring-in is infinitely superior to a 1/2 SB bring-in."

why do you see the smaller bring in as important? it is the implied odds and easy call with the antes already in, for the bring-in if it is the larger amount?

i assume that a larger ante would make the game too loose but i was not sure how to interpret the small/large bring-in. it seems as if you prefer that the ante pot should be about 1 1/2 small bets for a full table.
can i assume that without the antes, the bring in should be larger? or won't it make a difference in loosening up the opening call requirements?

[Lottery Larry]

in vehn's 7/8 post below, he wrote this:
"OK $10/$20 stud/8 on stars. $1 ante/$3 bringin (ugh)."

is this a bad stud structure? Or is it bad because it's /8?

[Andy B]

It's a standard structure. The ante's pretty small, so there's nothing to fight over. You can pretty much sit around and wait for the nuts, and that's not what poker is all about.

[Andy B]

I think that there should be some chance that a player, having limped in for the bring-in, might then fold to a completion. If you're playing $4/8 with a $2 bring-in, it is difficult to concoct a scenario where it is correct to limp in for $2 and then fold for an additional $2. I see people do it from time to time, but they're scared of me, and for good reason. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

A smaller bring-in encourages limping, and I like limping in with weak hands and imagining that I outplay my opponents on the later streets. Because limping is so attractive, it becomes important not to allow people to do it when you have a good but vulnerable hand such as a big or perhaps medium pair. The smaller bring-in should encourage more completions. This means more action, and I think a more interesting and enjoyable game. In a $4/8 game with a $2 bring-in, there isn't that much difference between what I'll play for $2 and what I'll play for $4. There are a lot of hands that I'll play for $2 in a $6/12 game that I won't play for $6. I like the opportunity for strategic variation afforded by the smaller bring-in.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I find the 50c ante, $2 bring in 5-10 stud quite enjoyable. The ante puts 0.8 small bets in the pot in a full game, and the bring-in makes it 1.2 small bets in the pot. The first raise completing to $5 offers slightly less leverage to drive people out, but this makes the game a bit looser. Assuming a raise against only the bring-in, the bring-in's calling odds are $11 to $3, 3.66 to one, $6 for the antes and bring-in and $5 for the raiser's bet.

Standard 10-20 stud antes put 0.8 small bets in the pot, and the bring-in makes it 1.1 small bets. It's not that much different. However the completion to $10 makes the calling odds $21 to $7, or 3:1. So the calling odds for anyone calling a raise are decreased. You can extrapolate for someone who's not the bring-in calling a raise. So in 10-20 you can afford to play tighter, and you should play tighter against a raise. As already stated, Ugh. It's great tho playing against players who play too tight on 3rd, but in general 10-20 games have less action than other structures.

Obviously 15-30 with a $2 ante is much different. with $16 in antes and a $5 bring-in, there's $21 in the pot, plus the $15 completion, makes it $36:$10, or 3.6 to 1 to call the raise if you're the bring-in. This is more like it was back in the 5-10 game.

Now on the net it's very common for the bring-in to be half a small bet. The structures are often identically proportioned as the stakes go up, tho it varies some by site. But take paradise's 10-20. $1 antes make for $8, plus the bring-in is $5, and the first raise is to $10. So there's $8 plus $5 plus the $10 bet makes $23 to $5, which is 4.6:1 calling odds for the bring-in. HUGE difference. Makes the game very much looser against the first raise, as Andy said.

Above that I have never played, so I won't go on. Analyze any game in a similar manner. I also believe structures like 15-30 (or 30-60) are closer to optimal than those afforded by the typical internet structure.

I like the 3-6 with a 50c ante and $1 bring in on party. The high ante prevents rocks from sitting there waiting for the nuts to play.

Some casinos are ditching the DREADFUL 1-5 no ante in favor of 50c ante, $2 bring-in, 2-5 spread limit structure. GREAT. If I want to play in a small stud game I'd much rather play like this, as it stimulates WAY more action. What the old crabby rocks will do with this game is of no concern to me, I'll just run them over if they play too tight.

al