Two hands. Little help?

[brian0729]

Ladies and Gents. I have been taking a beating lately and am trying my best to tell myself that these plays were ok and not weak. This game gets tough when your being clobbered cant wait to get out of this funk. On to the action.

Hand 1: I have no read on this opponent as he just sat down. This was his second or third hand.

Party Poker 2/4 (9 handed)
Hero has A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and is MP1

Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls

Flop(6 SB): J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB folds, BB calls

Turn(4 BB): 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB bets, Hero calls

River(6 BB): T/images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB bets, Hero folds

Hand 2: The two villians in this hand and normal calling stations.

Party Poker 2/4 (10 handed)
Hero has K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif and is MP2

EP1 limps, MP1 limps, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, EP1 calls, MP1 calls

Flop(12 SB): 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB checks, BB checks, EP1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, EP1 folds, MP1 folds

Turn(8 BB): 8/images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB calls, BB folds, Hero folds

River(13 BB): 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB checks, Button checks

To weak or good folds?

[johnb]

Hand 1:
I think your decision on the turn is either bet or fold. There are two realistic possibilities. One he had a queen or two pair and you are beat. Two he picked up a flush draw and is semi bluffing. I would lean toward raising. If he three bets I fold. If he calls and leads the river, I fold. The raise is to get information and define where you are. In middle limit games you sometimes see a player in a situation similar to what you were raise on the turn in hopes of getting a free showdown. I would have bet, hoped for a call, and checked it down on the river.

Hand 2:
This is a tough one. You have five opponents with a highly coordinated board. I might lean toward calling it down as the pot has gotten large by this point.

[brian0729]

[Aces McGee]

Could you explain why you called the turn but folded the river in hand 1? You don't have the odds to call the turn looking for one of your five outs. If you thought there was a good enough chance you were ahead on the turn to call, then you should call the river, too. If you thought he was on a draw that came through on the river, you should've raised him on the turn.

Aces McGee

[brian0729]

On the turn in hand 1. I suspected that I was up against two pair a set or a draw. I called because if the person was on a draw and it didnt get there I would check call the river. When the the flush and a 4 st8 hit the board I didnt think there was any way I could be ahead. I went with my read and folded for one bet, thats the part I am having problems with I dont know if this was an ok play because I had confidence in my read or if this was a fold from a WT who has been getting beaten down. As far as the turn raise, I did think I was drawing at that point and did want to charge myself more to draw.

[lil']

Hand 1 - I would raise his wimpy ass turn bet. I don't think he has a straight.

Hand 2 - I think we can safely assume you are behind. The question is, what are losing to? It's either 2 pair, a set, or the dreaded straight. You describe the button as a calling station, and they don't raise in this spot without something good, so I would lean towards making the fold.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as the turn raise, I did think I was drawing at that point and did want to charge myself more to draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is the case, then regardless of what you say earlier in the post, you felt like you were behind at that point. If that's the case, you don't have the odds to continue, and you should fold the turn.

The river fold isn't that bad, given that both the straight and flush came in, and there's a chance you're behind to a random queen, anyway.

The turn play is where the problem lies.

[brian0729]

I think your exactly right on your anaylsis. The turn is the bigger problem.

[Bob T.]

These could either be too weak, or good folds.

On hand 1, I think that you have to either fold to the turn bet, or call the river, I don't like the combination of calling then folding. What card did you hope to get on the river, that would have made you call a river bet, and how likely was that card going to come.

Hand 2, a calling station raises on a 4 straight board, then I think that it is safe to fold, apparently when he checks the river, your hand was good, and you have to remember that this is a loose tricky player, instead of a calling station.

[BigEndian]

Hand 1: I would have raised the turn. I think he was putting you to the test.

- Groove

[brian0729]

In hand 1: I would have check called if the river had not been a spade, but from what others have said a turn fold seem a much better option

In hand 2: Actually the SB who called two cold on the turn made the nut flush on the river.

[lil']

Hand 1 - OK, I don't know your opponent in this hand at all, but folding to the turn bet seems incredibly, incredibly weak.

[brian0729]

The more I think about this the more I think folding the turn is weak, but like Ace said earlier if I thought I was behind I didnt really have the odds to continue. I dont think this has as much to do with my opponent as it has the fact I have middle pair in a small pot

[lil']

So I guess my next question would be... why you were so sure you were behind? If all it takes is one bet to knock you off a hand, you'll be too easy to bluff.

[Bob T.]

I can't tell which is correct, but what I was saying, is you should either fold to the turn bet, or call the river bet, but the combination of call/fold has to be wrong.

On hand two, if the blind made the nut flush, you can really identify the button as weak tight, when he can't find a value bet on the river after making a straight on the turn.

[brian0729]

Honesty is all I have for this one....Lack of confidence. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[brian0729]

Great points as usual Bob.

Point 1: I understand your explanation, play it almost any way but the way I played the turn and river

Point 2: Excellent observation that of course went right by this rookie