oh boy... what have I done?

[elindauer]

party 2/4.

2 limpers to me in MP with

T/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif

LP raises. The blinds come along and 6 of us see the flop:

K /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Checked to me, I bet (?). LP raises again. 2 cold-callers, I call (?).

Turn:

T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Woo hoo! I can't wait to trap the field on this one. Checked to the raiser who bets. Limpers fold /images/graemlins/shocked.gif. I check-raise. Raiser finally slows down and calls. I am 100% sure I'm ahead.

River:

T /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet. Raiser raises. I 3-bet, now realizing what has happened. Raiser caps. I curse the heads up cap and call. Raiser shows KK.

That's right. I've now been on the drawing end of the worst possible beat you can lay on someone. My opponent in this hand said nothing, and immediately left the table. Perhaps he hit his computer with a golf club and disconnected.

How horrible was my play?

[BottlesOf]

If I were raised on the flop there, I would've folded. Every other street was fine, I think.

[Vehn]

I'm assuming you limped preflop which of course really f's up this hand. If you raise PF it makes it super easy to play here ala HEFAP - you get 3 bet PF, flop is K high, you're done.

[lil']

Raise pre-flop.

[elindauer]

If I note that I'm getting 19:1 to call the raise on the flop, does that change your opinion? It seems like a strategy of only continuing if I turn a set would be profitable, especially against this loose-calling field.


I'm interested to see that you think the flop bet was OK. This seems like the most doubtful move to me. Can we conclude that this monster outdraw might actually have been played reasonably well?

[Dylan Wade]

I think you actually need 22:1 to call, but I'd probably call too chalking up the missing outs to bad math.

[elindauer]

If I give you the information that this is a loose, passive table, does that change your opinion of my preflop limp?

You mention HEFAP, but this same book recommends limping much more often in these games. Perhaps that doesn't include TT?

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you actually need 22:1 to call, but I'd probably call too chalking up the missing outs to bad math or "maybe he doesnt have a king".

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't I chalk them up to "implied odds"? Or are you saying that you need 22:1 immediately from the pot to make up for the times you hit your set and still lose?

[Vehn]

You should raise because you have the 4th best hand. If people come over from other tables to coldcall behind you that's fine. My HEFAP siting refers to how easy it is to play if you assume your opponent is sane here - you raise preflop, he 3-bets which "should" indict AK or a higher pair, you call, flop is K-high, you check fold. Simple.

[Dylan Wade]

yes, of course, you're right .. lol

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
You should raise because you have the 4th best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

AA, KK, QQ... TT?

Just kidding Vehn. Thanks for the advice. I'm not convinced raising is best, but I'll certainly think about it.

[Nottom]

TT does make more straights than JJ, maybe that makes up the difference /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Vehn]

*sigh*

I've been drinking, OK?!?!

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[JTG51]

I think you are onto something. With 40K hands in my PokerTracker database, I've done better with TT than JJ. Don't let 'em change your mind, vehn!

[BottlesOf]

Sorry, I assumed a PF raise on your part. You gotta do that....

[elindauer]

Does anyone have an opinion about my flop bet? I've had trouble deciding when to bet into a PF raiser in these loose low limit games.

I assume I don't want many opponents with this hand, and given my position, betting into the raiser may accomplish this. Still, I'm not sure if that K flopping should lead me to just screw it and hand over this pot without a fight. When the PF raiser does raise to limit the field for me... am I really happy about it? Probably not.

Checking and seeing how the players between me and the raiser respond to a bet seems reasonable... maybe I call if nobody else calls, but fold if I get any limpers... I don't know. If it gets checked through, I'll surely wish I had bet, but at least I'll probably know where I stand should a blank hit the turn.

I frequently just give it up when an overcard hits, especially if I'm against multiple opponents. I've done well with pocket pairs, but I think I may be able to do even better by winning some hands without a set. I was trying something new... obviously with great success! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Thanks for your insights.


Eric

PS I can already see that some people are going to tell me to raise preflop to avoid this conundrum altogether. Thanks for the advice, I will consider this. I'm more interested at the moment though with suggestions for dealing with a preflop raiser, not a preflop 3-better.

[ElSapo]

Despite what other posters have said, I like the limp with TT. If you're getting many cold callers on the raise it looks like the table is pretty loose. Just call and look to hit a set.

TT is definitely one of those hands that is dependent on the table if you raise or call -- also dependent on my mood most days. Kind of like KQo and AJo.

I don't mind the limp, despite TT being a great hand.

[banditbdl]

I don't like the flop bet at all, I'd be checkfolding with 6 players seeing the flop. Now if there were 3 to the flop and the preflop raiser was a little loose it might be another story....

[lil']

I don't mind the limp, despite TT being a great hand.

That just sounds wrong.

Don't you see how a pre-flop raise makes the hand so much easier to play?

[Mike Gallo]

Eli,

Your opponent should have reraised and capped the turn. You were drawing to 1 card in the deck that can help you. You hit your 45:1 shot.

Talk about laying a bad beat on someone.

However all things considered you played the hand fine. What kind of action would you have given if you didnt hit your quads?

[mmanne]

I think the open raise of TT would have been better, but a limp is understandable. Actually, I think you messed up check raising the Turn. If you bet out again, the limpers probably would have called your bet, then you get raised by the KK. You can re-raise that, and make a ton of money. I like to bet out at a hand when I semi-bluff and hit. I think it gets a lot of action, and no one knows what you're on.

[ResidentParanoid]

It's only easier if your opponents play reasonably well. If they are loose and horrible, you are going to need a reasonable hand to win. Just limp along until you have one, especially with an OK, but not excellent hand like TT.

[lil']

So it has come to this. We don't raise 2 limpers with 10-10 anymore.

Sheesh... /images/graemlins/frown.gif

If they are loose and horrible, you are going to need a reasonable hand to win. Just limp along until you have one

Yuck...

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Just limp along until you have one, especially with an OK, but not excellent hand like TT.

[/ QUOTE ]

I personally think TT is at least a very good hand, if not excellent.

[slavic]

Good lord, that starting hand has sex appeal. Spends some money on her. Your dinner and a Movie pre-flop move isn't going to get you to second base.

[ResidentParanoid]

[ QUOTE ]
So it has come to this. We don't raise 2 limpers with 10-10 anymore.


[/ QUOTE ]

If there are going to be something like 6 people seeing the flop, regardless of whether your raise or not, I don't see the value of raising TT. You're raising against 2 limpers because you're hoping

1) everyone behind you folds pre-flop
2) given 1) they don't improve and give up,
3) given 1, they lay down something better than TT when K flops because they fear your raise.
4) given 1, they call to the end with a smaller pair or other unimproved hand.


This is 2/4. If most everyone at the table is horrible, none of 1, 2 and 3 happens. Limp. If you have overpair or better, or a draw, go at it. If you see K high board against 6 players with no draws, you are dead. Fold.

Now, if the table is playing better than this, then raising is an option, especially if you are likely to get it 3 handed.

[lil']

Now, if the table is playing better than this, then raising is an option, especially if you are likely to get it 3 handed.

So I should get less money in the pot against poor players with worse hands?
Nah...I like raising.

[ResidentParanoid]

In this case, preflop, that's exactly what I mean. You opponents are playing wacky cards. You are making their drawing to 1 overcard postflop closer to correct by making the pot big preflop.

TT is on the boundary for me with pocket pairs. I'll usually raise it with JJ (although if it's really loose, even with JJ I'll sometimes just limp). At the loosey tables, where 6 seeing the raised flop is pretty common, I put TT into the medium/small pair category, that I'm trying to hit a set or better with, for the most part.

[lil']

OK, I'll stop being flippant and try to explain.

Why do you raise A-A even though you know a bunch of people may call you anyway? Because you have the best hand and you are building a little pot for yourself. You aren't going to win every time, but you win enough to make it profitable. When you raise, you give your opponents better odds to chase postflop, but that doesn't matter. You are getting money in the pot when you have the best of it and they are making a mistake pre-flop. You can't be afraid that someone with 6-3 is gonna call, flop a 3 and have odds to try and hit a five outer later.

You can make the same argument for K-K (although it's not quite as good as A-A).
You can make the same argument for Q-Q (although it's not quite as good as K-K).
You can make the same argument for J-J (although it's not quite as good as Q-Q).
You can make the same argument for 10-10 (although it's not quite as good as J-J).

Yes, there is a point where you can't use the argument anymore, but 10-10 is a good enough hand to raise with in this spot and it's going to win it's fair share. And I've played enough 2-4 to know that they do sometimes fold to a raise, but limping invites more limping, leading to the very problem you are trying to guard against.

And I haven't even got into how if he raised pre-flop it would have made the hand easier to play, and how he could have avoided drawing to runner runner quads. I think other posters (vehn, I think) have addressed that isssue.

[ResidentParanoid]

I obviously agree with you on AA. The question is where if the cutoff where limping is a better option. Is it TT, or is it 99? Certainly limping is better with 22.

On the loosest tables, I find that limping is just fine with TT.

If there is a very real chance of getting everyone behind you to fold preflop, then you have a very good chance of not only having the best hand now, but likely having the best hand at the showdown. Or, better yet, having everyone else fold before the showdown.

But when the "everyone folding" after the flop option has essentially "0" chance, meaning there is almost surely going to be a showdown, then I like to limp with many hands pre-flop. I think I get in less trouble this way. On the button or one off, with 2 limpers, I'm more apt to raise it if I may be able to get blinds to fold (there's only 2 of them).

As far as the post-flop issues, if your opponents are good enough that a raise will make playing post-flop easier, then yes, a raise is probably ok. I'm assuming they're mostly clueless at 2/4 and are mainly focused on whether they have a hand or not. I suppose I'm giving my 0.5/1 strategy here, which seems to work pretty well at 2/4.