Final table QQ tactics

[ACPlayer]

Final table of a tournament. The table has been playing reasonably aggressive with raises and re-raises fairly common.

6 players left. I have 14.5K chips, leader has 26.5K, I am third. Blinds are 600-1200 with a 75 ante.

UTG+1 moves all in making it 10.5K to go.
Next player moves all in for 13.25K

I have QQ.

What are the considerations in this decision? Is this an obvious call, raise, fold?

[jayg]

Here's how I might interpret the conversation:

UTG+1: "Strong hand here, but not one that likes company. 99-JJ, likely."
UTG +2: "Ohh, sorry 'bout that KK or AA here. The rest of you just go ahead and fold, please."

When he asks so nicely, how can you do anything but fold.

Seriously, you're likely in a spot of trouble -- at best you're a coin flip against AK. Let one of these two bust out and move up in the prize pool.

-j

[morgant]

i am very new but i think this is an easy fold(especially cause this call has knocked me out a few times this week), if one of those hands has at least AK that puts you at a coin flip and the other might or might not have a bigger pocket pair than yourself. i could imagine the guy calling the all-in could be isolating with a medium pair hoping to play against overcards..but is this a spot you want to coin flip. you have not mentioned anything of their playing styles but thats how i would feel. let them race move up in the money and pick a better spot...curious to hear others thinking as this is one of my first attempts at analyzing someone elses play .....if you were first to act however, that is a whole different ball of wax.

[ripdog]

Against one all-in I would very likely call, but the second one coming in over the top would lead me to fold this one pretty quickly. The cards that you don't want to see on the flop have just increased greatly, plus I now have some doubts about being ahead pre-flop. I think you're up against a big Ace and another big pair. Plus, QQ has been very bad to me lately...

[Mike Gallo]

Fold, let them battle it out.

[Yeknom58]

Well I'm fairly sure you have the first guy beat but what is the 2nd guy calling with? I'm willing to bet it's at least AK. If you add in the fact that one of them will be going home or severly crippled then I would say this is a fold. I say you have to give the caller credit for his hand.

[Chicago Kid]

Seems like a pretty easy fold to me. You've got to beleive that ONE of these guys is holding a high pair, perhaps higher than yours, and one is probably something along the lines of AK.

At best, you're a coin-flip favorite, at worst, you're dominated. Mucking the hand will most likely move you up a position, or leave the second player so crippled that moving up should be an afterthought.

If you play, you're either resoudingly right, or you're crippled. Wait for a better situation.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

What are the payouts? Are 1st and 2nd significantly more than 3rd and 4th? Is 4th bigger than 6th by a large enough margin to make you care? You said you were 3rd in chip count. The 2 combatants have fewer than you. How much does #2 and the other one lower than you have? How soon do the blinds increase? The next blind increase puts you in desparation mode.

Standard payouts, I'm likely to fold, but that also depends on how the table has been playing. You could just as easily be up against JJ & AT, or A9s & AJ as against AK or an overpair.

I can see myself calling here if the blinds are going to increase on this orbit and the big stacks have been stealing alot.

[fnurt]

If no one has AA or KK (hardly a foregone conclusion!) you are a clear money favorite. Saying that AK is a coinflip is a fallacy because you have a third hand in play. If it's not AA or KK, either that hand is a lower pair than yours or it is dominated by AK. In either case it is mostly dead money, and in the case where it is dominated it also takes away outs from AK.

For example, QQ vs AK is a 57-43 favorite. Many of us would think of that as a coin flip. However, QQ vs AK and AJ is STILL a 57% favorite to win the hand, only now the pot is laying you 2-1 odds on top of it all. If you knew these holdings were out there, the call would be too good to pass up.

You still need to judge the likelihood of someone having AA or KK, and it depends on how the table has been playing. If most raises are taking the pot down uncontested, and suddenly this guy calls all-in with a bunch of people to act behind him, there's a good chance he has the goods.

I wouldn't really fault anyone for folding here and seeing what develops, but it's important to understand that being up against AK is NOT a coinflip situation here.

[morgant]

Fnurt, hypothetically in the above example, there is one all in to you which almost covers your stack.. you know he has AK and you got ladies, you are going to call with that edge? i am curious for my own thought process as i am learning this game. Personally even if i knew he had AK I'd pass up that offer of a race while i do have an edge(is that too tight?), i would imagine a large difference in payout at this stage of a tournament and would like to pick a better place, especially when i am in a comfortable chip position. Are pot odds written in stone in tournament play? dont they waver a bit due to the fact that one glimmer in the probability spectrum spells your exit from the tourney and there is no next hand??? these are questions again as i trying to become a better player. add to that example if the third player calls with TT would that not make your fold even easier as that adds outs to the opposition and decreases your edge further?..thanks morg.

[ACPlayer]

Standard type payouts, mostly in the top three.

I have plenty of chips and the table has been quite aggressive, but every one plays well.

[ACPlayer]

On reflection, (and perhaps driven by results) you may be right.

As it turned out I was against JJ and 44. 44 won with a set.

However, I think the point here is if I lose this pot I am now a favorite to finish 4th or 5th. I am pretty much guaranteed fifth if i am on the sidelines as either the small stack busts or the second small stack is crippled.

The upside ofcourse is that if i win I have a mountain of chips.

So, I had the best scenario for me and ended up fifth. Where as I could have stayed on the sidelines, looking for a headsup situation where there is a good chance I am the favorite by a good margin.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

If the table's been aggressive and all play well, I'd call, especially if you're getting close to the next blind increase.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

At best, you're a coin-flip favorite,

No. At best he's a huge favorite over 2 smaller pairs

at worst, you're dominated

He's got a pair, by definition, he can't be "dominated"

ou've got to beleive that ONE of these guys is holding a high pair, perhaps higher than yours,

Why? Is this table so tight that a reraise *must* mean AA or KK?

Wait for a better situation.

He's getting close to 2-1 with the third best hand in poker. There are many other possibilities in this play by short stacks that don't include an overpair. It's also possible his opponents hold some of each others' outs.

The key here is still how close he is to the increase in blinds. He may not have the luxury of waiting for a better opportunity. Besides what better opportunity are you looking for than holding the 3rd best starting hand *and* getting close to 2-1 from the pot?

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Is the play obvious? No.

What are the considerations? What hands do you put these guys on. You're at the final table with them, so you must have some thoughts about what range of hands they would play like this. Is this the first time the 10K guy has gone all-in? Or has he been doing this once per orbit to stay even? How aggressive has the 13K guy been? While he obviously isn't restealing, he may not be giving the first raiser much credit, and therefore coming in with somewhat light values. Or, do you expect him to give the first raiser some credit, and thus have a big hand?

Against most opponents at this stage, I'd call with QQ pretty quickly. 10K guy, if typical, would've raised to 3-4K with AA or KK, as he would want one caller. Reraiser can be playing off the first raise, knowing the guy is about to face the blinds, and figuring he might be raising with any semi-reasonable hand.

Too bad you made the right decision and got unlucky.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Still the Spank E]

With 2 people going all-in ahead of you, a call--even with ladies wired--seems a bit of a gamble. 'Much as we want to remove the element of gambling from the competition, it does rear its ugly head from time to time. While one poster makes the good point that you've got BETTER than a coin-flip AND 2-1 pot odds, the consideration as to whether to gamble here probably DOES come down to the difference--as another poster points out--in the tournament's payouts: will you DIE if you go out here? If not--what the heck? Make it and you're LARGE AND IN CHARGE! Get beat and you can take home some not-inconsiderable dough and get yourself some well-needed rest before the next bout with the poker gods. If this "advice" seems more philosophical than directly practical you're probably underestimating the value of a good night's sleep.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
Fnurt, hypothetically in the above example, there is one all in to you which almost covers your stack.. you know he has AK and you got ladies, you are going to call with that edge?

[/ QUOTE ]

If AK was all in and it was my choice whether to call with a 57-43 edge, it mostly depends on the stack sizes.

I probably would not take that chance if the stacks were even. If I had a lot more chips and losing wouldn't hurt me too badly, I would probably take the chance in order to move up a spot in the money. On the other hand, if I was short-stacked and unlikely to get a better opportunity to double, I would probably take it as well.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
He's got a pair, by definition, he can't be "dominated"

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't QQ dominated be by KK and AA? Essentially, if one of his opponents has one of these hands, isn't he drawing to two outs? Are you saying that 22 isn't dominated by AA?

[ACPlayer]

Hi Greg

This was a $50 Poker Stars multi-table tournament with the prize money concentrated in the top 3 places. During the final 2 tables there was a fair amount of raising followed by a re-raise - muck sequence. Some of it was re-steals, however, reraising an all-in can never be a bluff.

My thoughts during the game were similar to yours. However, after wards I wondered (probably because I was watching rather than playing the table!) were directed to the thought that, unless one has the nuts, it may be better to avoid playing a multi-way pot all-in pre-flop. I would much rather play small pots and continue the struggle on the flop where hopefully superior play skills will be rewarded.

Also, watching from the side lines gains a lot of equity as people knock each other out.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Couldn't QQ dominated be by KK and AA?

That's not my understanding of the common usage of "dominated." A dominated hand is one where you both hold the same high card, but your kicker is lower. Thus AQ is dominated by AK. being in against an overpair is much worse than being dominated.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
That's not my understanding of the common usage of "dominated." A dominated hand is one where you both hold the same high card, but your kicker is lower. Thus AQ is dominated by AK. being in against an overpair is much worse than being dominated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Abdul Jalib, paraphrasing Roy Hashimoto, says:

A hand is dominated if it has 3 or fewer outs against another, like AJ against AQ.

I think that under this definition, a pair is certainly dominated by a higher pair (two outs.)

Heck, when you're outkicked, at least you have three outs! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Kurn, son of Mogh]