Was this unethical?

[INITECH]

It's my understanding that lying is part of the game of poker. I am the most honest person I know away from the table. However. . .

We were playing a 3 card draw game, with no betting only pot matching, the other night. I looked at my cards and saw that I had A,A,K. Nobody saw me check my hole cards and the pot wasn't very big so I asked an opponent if he would like to make a side bet of $10 whose had was better and I'll bet without looking at my hand. He did and I won and now feel akward like I may have cheated him. At the time I felt like I was just maximizing my profits. Was I unethical?

[t_perkin]

I would say that it depends on exactly how you worded what you said:

case 1:
"I have not looked at my cards."
"I bet you $10 that I have a better hand than you"

Your first statement is entirely seperate from the second. The bet that you are making (the second statement) does not contain any reference as to whether or not you are allowed to look at your cards. It is up to him to consider your first statement (and its validity) when deciding whether to accept the bet.

case 2:
You:"I bet you $10 that the cards which I have not seen are better than yours"

Now in this statement, part of the contract (bet) between you is that you have not seen your cards. Thus if you have seen your cards then it is not possible for the bet to take place because the preconditions for the contract (that you have not seen your cards) have not taken place.



This is from a logical point of view, I have no idea what would happen in a court of law.

More importantly this is all syntactic water under the bridge. If he is your friend then you shouldn´t take his money.

I regularly have such bets with my friends. However there is a very strong unwritten agreement that all proceeds for such bets go towards paying for something that is mutually beneficial (such as the next round of drinks in the bar, buying some new poker chips for the group etc.).

Avoid such bets with friends who are likely to think badly if they discover they have been "cheated". Is that $10 worth losing a friend for? (very clichéd, sorry)
Also avoid such bets if they are for an amount of money that will put either person in financial hardship.

At the end of the day only one man can carry your guilt

Those are my personal thoughts on such side bets.

Tim

[CrackerZack]

You looked at your hand, made a proposition bet based on the fact you didn't. This is angle-shooting and a $hitty thing to do.

[ QUOTE ]
I am the most honest person I know away from the table.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just like Peter Gibbons huh?

[irchans]

If you said "I'll bet without looking at my hand", you were honest, but deceptive. Therefore, I would say you were acting unethically.

PS: Lying is not a necessary part of poker. It is perfectly feasible to play poker without making any verbal statements about the cards.

[Tommy Angelo]

If you were selling him your car, would it be ethical to lie about its condition, just because you happened to be sitting at a poker table?

That you wrote the post means to em that you think you did wrong. And no one can make a ruling on that except you.


Tommy

[ccwhoelse?]

i asked this in the B&M section but i wasn't satisfied.
i demand satisfaction.

if a player isn't protecting his hand,

where do you draw the line as far as looking at his cards.

do you not look at all.

someone replied that he would tell the other player.

[Tommy Angelo]

"where do you draw the line"

Same as everyone else. Wherever I want.

[andyfox]

Depends on your standard of ethics. By my standards, it was unethical. You lied. Your statement to the other player indicated that you didn't know what you had. But you did know what you had. You cheated him.

[Louie Landale]

Ethics is doing the right thing even if its "legal". Car salesmen are unethical if they mislead you about the condition of the car. I would say you were unethical; but that's just me.

I would also like to point out: [1] this incident distracted you for much of the rest of the night and so, overall, proved to by bad EV. This is like "if you think you are being cheated then quit: not only will a 10% chance negate any advantage, worrying about it will also". People with consciounces NEED to act ethically. [2] The other guy is an idiot. Besides [2a] "Don't take the other guy's proposition", there is [2b] "If it looks too good to be true, it is".

- Louie

[CrackerZack]

I always mention it to the other player when i notice it. If he does it again, I mention it again. 3rd time is a judgement call. If he's elderly, new to poker, etc etc, I'll tell him/her a 3rd,4th,5th, etc and make an effort to lean away when he's looking. If he's obnoxious, or one of the know-it-all types, he gets told twice, then i'm gonna isolate him any chance I get.

[DougBrennan]

uh---yeah!

[Yeknom58]

My rule of thumb is that if I were in his shoes would this piss me off.

Now lets say I did this to you would you be upset?

[slamdunkpro]

Not only were you unethical, you're now a cheat.

[Schmed]

it is absolutely cheating....

[INITECH]

I really didn't think it was wrong at the time, but the money is good as returned with a six pack of beer for intrest.

But lets say I was at the final table of a big tournament and went all in and said I haven't looked at my cards yet? Is that lying? or just Poker talk?

[Schmed]

my guess is you're not sitting at the final table of a tournament with your friends....

Being at the final table would mean to the other players, even if they didn't play with you, that you weren't a fish therefore they are more likely to see your statement for what it is.

[Gahnia radula]

[CrackerZack]

That not being a proposition bet, just part of the game, its still lying, but much less unethical. You adhering to the rules, and moving all your chips into the pot. If you tell him you didn't see your hand, and he believes you went all in blind, he can do what he wants with that information. But I don't think he'd believe you anyway. I don't think I'd adamantly swear up and down I hadn't looked at my cards if I had, but if he asked me something like "Like your hand, huh?" I may respond with, "nah, didn't even look at 'em yet." in jest more than anything.

[phish]

There is no question in my mind you cheated him.
In the games I play in, people sometimes 'crossbook', which is they wager the difference between their results and their opponent's. In other words, if i crossbook with you and at the end of the day i'm up 10,000 and you're up 6,000 then you owe me 4,000.
This is a sidebet similar to yours. But here it is very easy to cheat by sneaking chips onto your stack. Gambling presumes a certain level honesty amongst its participants and I feel very strongly you crossed the line.
Regardless of how you worded it, you made a wager with your friend based on the presumption that neither of you have seen your cards. It was a sucker con that he fell for, and it's right that you should feel bad about it.

[hamshow90]

i don't even beleive you when u say you are the most honest person away from the table, that is quite a slimey move.

[mosch]

If I caught you doing this, you'd no longer be welcome at my home game, and I'd get a table change if you sat with me at the casino. There's deception in the game, but there's also supposed to be some gentlemanly honor.

[mosch]

If a player isn't protecting his hand, I politely ask them to protect their hand.

After all, I don't want to win (or save money) because somebody can't protect his hand, I want to win because I played good poker. Anything else would be a tainted victory, and I could take no joy in it.

[Andy B]

You might have started a new thread. When you sneak a peek at the other guy's hand, you are gaining information to which you are not entitled. You can use it against that player, and that's fine because it's his own damned fault. You can, however, use this information against the other players, and this, I think, is where the ethical problem lies. I now warn people each and every time they fail to protect their hands adequately. At the higher limits, players are much better about this.

[Ace-Korea]

It might be unethical and unfriendly, but I don't think looking at your own cards is cheating. He just lied about how he didn't look at his cards; technically that's not cheating.

[Noodles]

When he saw you had AAk what was his reaction? He must have realised that something was fishy.
If he had said "why dont we bet on lowest hand?" what would you have done then?
Obviously you cheated but I think the guy who accepted the bet was a bit stupid.
Isnt there a quote which goes "it is immoral to leave a sucker with his money"

[Lou Krieger]

Of course it's unethical. Almost everyone realizes that, and you do too. If you didn't, you wouldn't have posted it to this forum.
_____
Lou Krieger
Raise your game with Lou Krieger, author of "Poker For Dummies" and five other poker books, at Royal Vegas Poker.
http://www.royalvegaspoker.com/lou

[josie_wales]

Is this the sort of behavior that you learned from your parents or did you learn to do stuff like this all on your own?
josie wales

[Lou Krieger]

[ QUOTE ]
if a player isn't protecting his hand, where do you draw the line as far as looking at his cards. do you not look at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I realize everyone has different standards on this issue, but I'll draw my particular line by trying to distinguish between those who can't and those who won't.

If someone is frail, infirm, or can't see very well, and needs to raise his or her cards to read them, I'll inform the player that he is exposing hole cards, then make every effort to look away so as not to gain any advantage. On the other hand, if a player is just plain sloppy and doesn't try to protect his cards, I'll use that information if it comes my way -- though I won't go out of my way to steal a glance.
_____
Lou Krieger
Raise your game with Lou Krieger, author of "Hold'em Excellence: From Beginner to Winner" and 5 other poker books, at Royal Vegas Poker
http://www.royalvegaspoker.com/lou

[James Boston]

I was watching a game from the rail at a casino recently, and I was in a position to see one particular player's cards. I didn't plan this, it was just something I noticed. On this particular day, I didn't end up playing with this player. Would sitting down with him have been unethical since I had some good information on his standards for what hands to stay in with, raise with, etc...? He was extremely loose, and I could have benefited from this.

[Louie Landale]

I think the issue here is should you look and take advantage of what his hole cards are for that hand. Gaining information about how he plays shouldn't be a problem at all.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Initech,

Someone may have said this before, but ... if you have to ask if it's ethical, it usually isn't.

Cris