Pre-flop raising in Omaha/8?

[jedi]

I'm a fairly new player and I'm trying to learn Omaha/8 since everything I've read says that it's the easiest to win money at for low level stakes. Everything I've read also points to Hand Selection as the #1 skill to playing low limit Omaha/8.

My question is about pre-flop raising. If I have one of the premium hands, I've been raising in the past. But sometimes the flop COMPLETELY misses me. For example, if I have AA23 double suited, the flop comes down 89J 2 suits, none mine. I have basically put extra money into the pot before the flop that I probably won't be getting. I think I've finally learned to fold in this situation (before it was "But I had a great starting hand!"). So now the question is: With all that can go wrong after the flop, should you raise pre-flop with great hands or should you wait until after the flop to see what you're drawing at or what you're up against?

What about High only hands? Is AAKK double suited a good enough hand to raise with? If a low comes, you're drawing to half the pot no matter what. Any straight draw will be a gutshot. The hands I'd be looking to make are top set/full house or nut flush. I'm just not sure about raising pre-flop with these great hands when it's really easy to get drawn out on with bad flops.

[Schmed]

Well just like in Holdm when you have KK and you raise preflop and an A hits. When the flop misses you get out.

In Ray's book he talks about raising to buy the button and if you have a hand like AA23 dbl suited go ahead and get more money in the pot but raising to get money in the pot is more often than not wrong.

I mix it up myself but if I raise I usually have an A workin with a 2. I'll raise hands like A2KQ if my A is suited.

[iblucky4u2]

O/8 is like all poker games - any time you can get $ into a pot when you are a favorite or you can get favorable odds then go ahead and raise. Yes, this will create more vairance in your stack, but in the long run, raising with premium hands will make you money. Buzz can expound on the odds of AA23ds winning, but if you raise every time you have this hand, you will come out ahead.

There are some who play O/8 in a style that keeps losses and vairance to a minimum. They never raise until the river. They do not lose or win a lot, but they tend to leave a lot of $ on the table. Last night in a LL game, I had two rocks at the table who would not bet their nut hands on flop or turn for fear of the river making a hand to beat them. I've even seen some rocks who are so set in stone they won't bet the nut flush if there is a straight-flush possible on the board. Is this a way to play O/8 - if it's you style yes. Does it fit my style - no. Find the way that fits your bankroll, psychological makeup and style and then refine that to a winning O/8 approach.

[spamuell]

In OMAHA HIGH-LOW - Play to Win with the Odds by Bill Boston, he says the following about raising pre-flop:

"In my opinion, no Omaha high-low hand warrants raising before the flop. (You may disagree and it won't hurt my feelings). Here is an example to support my reasoning. Let's suppose that you have been dealt A-A-2-3 DS, that rarity that we seldom hold. No matter what your position, why not raise to build the pot? But here is what often happens in tight games - the players that normally stay with marginal hands probably will not call, and you put the good players on notice that you are playing a very strong hand. Consequently, you often get little action..."

However, the type of LLO8 game you are playing in, you are likely to still get action, as people are generally looking for a reason to call. As your hand is a huge favourite (AA23 is approx a 42% favourite to win all or part of the pot), you should be trying to get as much money in as possible when you have the best of it, people are likely to call you down anyway. In a no fold'em game, you have to raise pre-flop with AA23 and similarly strong hands, and Boston does actually mention this in his book, he was talking about tight games, but he quotes Shane Smith on LL games.

Not raising pre-flop with AA23 because of the times you will miss the flop is like not raising in hold'em with KK because of the times an Ace will fall or someone will hit a lucky 2 pair or spike their underpair. This will happen sometimes, but in the long run, you will be a winner.

Sorry if I've rambled, I'm exhausted. I suggest you buy Bill Boston's book, as well as Shane Smith's and Ray Zee's although I don't think it is as good as the other two for LL games (I wonder if Mason will edit this). Also, the profits from Boston's book go to cancer research, not Mason.

[crockpot]

So now the question is: With all that can go wrong after the flop, should you raise pre-flop with great hands or should you wait until after the flop to see what you're drawing at or what you're up against?

i think the real question to ask here is "will my raise knock other players out?" since you need to get some significant help from the board to win anyway, it is critical that you let other players in with worse hands to pay you off. thus, while i would raise with AA23ds every time on the button or in the blinds, i would usually limp with it in early position, though i might reraise if someone else raises.

if you won't knock anyone out, go ahead and raise. even though you will miss a lot of the flops, you will hit way more of them than your opponents do, so you are getting your money in with the best odds, which is the way to win at o/8. however, don't go crazy and raise with hands like A27J rainbow.

What about High only hands? Is AAKK double suited a good enough hand to raise with?

i suspect that if you were in big blind and everyone limped to you, you might be getting good odds to raise with this hand. in just about any other situation, you are better off limping and seeing what happens, just like with every other high hand in this game. in tighter games that you would find at higher limits, raising with this hand is a good policy to follow, but in loose games it will just cost you money.

[Phat Mack]

The first question to ask is what effect a raise will have on the table. Will it cause players to fold? If so, how many? Will all the players stay in? Will it announce that I have A2? The answers to these questions can change from game to game, and within a game, from minute to minute depending on the game's mood, player composition and position of the raiser.

I wouldn't do a lot of raising until I knew the answers to these questions, and knew what I wanted to achieve: when to narrow the field, when to build a pot, when to try and set up a free card or a free lay. It takes time to learn these things. One way to learn is by raising and seeing what happens. A cheaper way is by watching others raise and seeing what happens.

[Drunk Bob]

AA23 Double suited is the best hand in O8 .But it is not as much as a favorite as AA in Hold Em.

In a loose low limit game hands like this should be used to trap your opponents.Only raise from the blinds and late position.


Bad flop? Fold!


Bye the way I've only had AA23 DS once.Utg I called ,6 /images/graemlins/ooo.gif callers.


Flop- K K 9 none of my suits.


Big Blind bets I fold.

Big blind shows KK. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[chaos]

I usually only raise to build the pot in low limit games. So I am usually in late position or in the blinds when I raise. If people are giving my raises respect I might raise a single caller hoping to narrow the field.

Unless it is the single caller situation or close to a family pot, I generally do not raise with high only hands.

If your opponents are at all attententive you may need to mix it up. This is my main reason for raising with high hands. I do not want my raise to automatically mean that I am holding A2.

If I miss the flop, I fold with giving it much of a second thought.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
AA23 Double suited is the best hand in O8 .But it is not as much as a favorite as AA in Hold Em.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not correct. 9 handed, AA23DS will win around 42% of the time. AA in HE's win rate is more like half of this.

[Drunk Bob]

Interesting numbers .Where did they come from?
Is that winning a peice of the pot? sometimes scooping ,sometimes 3/4 ,sometimes 1/2,sometimes 1/4 sometimes1/6 and very occasionally 1/8.

AA wins 35% OF THE TIME AND RARELY SPLITS!

[Buzz]

iblucky4u2 - I have mixed feelings about raising before the flop with certain quality hands. I'm not at all concerned about the possibility that I won't like the flop. That's not it at all. Like you, I want to get as much money in the pot as possible when I have the odds on my side.

However while sometimes the situation seems ripe for raising before the flop, other times it doesn't. And I'm not mainly talking about position, although position is a consideration in pre-flop raising. I'm talking about alerting your opponents to your holding. Purely that.

A slight slow-play of certain big hands before the flop, in particular certain AAXX and A2XX hands, regardless of position, can pay off big later - and on future hands too, not just on the particular deal on which you get A2XX or AAXX. (You don't play hands in isolation unless you're playing against very unsophisticated opponents).

How often have you heard the table fool expound upon his wisdom by declaring, "Well I know he didn't have ace-two or ace-three because he didn't raise before the flop."? Or how often have you heard someone declare, "Well I knew he had aces because he raised before the flop."?

And yet sometimes the time seems right to raise before the flop with a nice hand.

Regarding AA23d, I don't know how often it wins. It makes the nut low 42.29% of the time and it makes a non-nut low another 12.17% of the time. Any hand with one pair makes a full house or quads 8.30% of the time. AA23d makes a nut flush with an un-paired board another 7.2% or so of the time. Those are great stats - like batting .485 and leading the league in runs batted in, home runs and stolen bases.

Alas, you don't get dealt AA23d much, only 12/270725 or about one hand out of every 22560. The last time it was dealt to me was last year in a tournament. As it happened, I thought the time was ripe for raising and I gunned the hand all the way to the showdown. I had been sitting quietly, hardly participating at all, but the players at my table seemed an unsophisticated bunch who were more into their own cards than moves by their opponents and in addition they were all heavy handed oafs trying to make their own moves. The playing mode at the table was raise, raise, raise. So when I finally did catch those beautiful starting cards (AA23d), that's how I played them, like a heavy handed oaf. (When in Rome...) I scooped that (huge) pot and never looked back on my way to the final table and the tournament win. (I was lucky on that particular occasion. Luck in a tournament, IMHO, depends more on who you draw for opponents than on the cards you draw.)

I (easily) might never again get dealt AA23d, but if I am, the next time I'm dealt it, I might slow-play it before the flop. It would just depend on whether I thought I could get away with playing it like a heavy-handed oaf or not. And that would be very dependent on the particular mix of opponents at my table, the history of the game, position, etc.

I don't slow play my hands much. But if the guy on my left is going to bet every time I check and/or raise too often when I bet, then I might usually slow play good hands.

Bottom line: Whether you raise or not before the flop depends much, much more on your interaction with your opponents and their interactions with each other than on the cards you, yourself, hold.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[iblucky4u2]

Buzz,
thanks for taking the time to put up some stats for all to see. I believe they make my case for raising with Premium hands. This means more than just AA23d.

My post was in response to Jedi - who states that he is a beginner. I believe that the basic plays need to be mastered before getting into varying play. I find that Raising with high hands is a great way to confuse the heck out of most LL players. Try raising and then getting a flop of KKJ. Most "oafs" will play me for A2 type hands and call me down or even raise me when I hold the nuts! It's also a great way to put them on tilt. The other play when raising with high hands is when a low board comes, say 245xx, and a bluff can often scoop.

But first, beginners like Jedi should understand the types of hands that are +ev when raised, understand how this can create variances in stack size, change how the others at the table view them and all the other basics of poker that are unique to O/8.

One of the best compliments I ever received at the tables was from an excellent player who told me he "never knew what I had." That's when O/8 gets to be fun /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[iblucky4u2]

35% against 1 player? 2? I always thoght it was in the low 20's.
In low limit O/8, winning almost 50% against large fields is a much better payoff - inlcuding splits!