I think I got lucky here ...

[SoCalPat]

Paradise .5/1. Mostly loose passive, but the player to my left has a bit of a maniac in him. In an earlier hand, he raised preflop with K2 suited, caught his runner-runner flush draw and bottom pair on the flop and bet into a paired board on the turn when he picked up his flush draw. Raises often preflop, too often for me to believe he's getting great cards all the time.

I'm in the BB with 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG raises, and two MPs call (one of whom posted), as does the CO and SB. I reraise, hoping to get UTG to cap and get the others to fold.

Of course, this being microlimit, if they call two cold preflop, what's another two more bets cold? UTG caps, and we're seven to the flop for 24 SB

FLOP 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB checks, I bet, UTG raises. MP, CO and SB call two cold. I call. Five to the flop for 34 SBs.

TURN Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB leads out, I call, getting far better than 11-1 (14-1 if one discounts the 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif) on my gutshot, no one folds and we're five to the river for 22 BB

RIVER: 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB bets out, I raise, UTG and MP folds, CO makes it 3 (89 ?!?!?!?!), SB calls 2 cold, I call.

SB had Q7s for two pair.
CO had Q3c for top pair and a rivered ignorant end straight.
UTG folded before showdown, so I don't know what he had.
My hand is good.

Two questions:
Was my thought process preflop sound? I wanted to isolate the maniac, but at these levels, it's probably pointless, right?

Would I be a complete idiot not to go for my gutshot given the size of the pot?

Comments on all streets appreciated.

[Mike Gallo]

Pat,


I think you postioned yourself you become "lucky".

I think you played the hand well on all streets.

[Aces McGee]

What do people think of the preflop 3bet? I think the reason the poster gives is a little silly, and he seems to know it (no way that many cold callers will fold to two more bets).

But is this a situation where there's value in a raise? This is a concept I've heard rumblings about but don't fully understand.

Thanks

Aces McGee

[anatta]

I wouldn't 3-bet with 88 here. Being half in, your implied odds are huge. You should think twice before raising with medium pocket pairs in the SB when everyone limps and in the BB when its raised. You're usually getting such great odds on flopping a set, you should just see the flop cheaply.

If seven or more players are in, raising is okay (this is the "raise for value" idea since your odds on hitting are 7.5:1)

I don't think anyone's folding if UTG caps it. Many players fold to a three-bet, but its rare to see a cold-call of a raise and then a fold to a cap.

[me454555]

I think you should, 3 bet the flop. You have the over pair. Most likely, people are drawing for the flush. Charge them the full amount. On top of that, you probobbly have the best hand at that point.

I might consider 3 betting the river too b/c your on the high end of the strait and I think you will take it down more often than someone will show 89.

[SoCalPat]

[ QUOTE ]
If seven or more players are in, raising is okay (this is the "raise for value" idea since your odds on hitting are 7.5:1)


[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean seven players in addition to myself, for a total of eight, or just seven total, including myself? Because seven players (including myself) already had money in the pot. Wouldn't this, in fact, be a time to value raise?

[GuyOnTilt]

Preflop: Not good. The MP's are not going to fold for 2 more if they've already called 2 cold, and definitely not if the cap comes from a maniac. You're just killing your implied odds here and getting money in the pot without a great hand is all.

Flop: Good.

Turn: Your call is fine. You're getting more than good enough odds to call.

River: DEFINITELY cap it for value. You'll miss out on 2 bets here much more often than you'll lose one.

[anatta]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you mean seven players in addition to myself, for a total of eight, or just seven total, including myself? Because seven players (including myself) already had money in the pot. Wouldn't this, in fact, be a time to value raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is similar to "value" raising when there are just two callers and you have a strong flush draw on the flop. Your odds are 2:1 to hit your flush, and with two callers you are...well...even money, but we are supposed to believe that our flush draw always wins, and if we hit our ace or whatever that is more outs, so its a so called "value raise" in addition to a "free card" raise or whatever else it might be. Anything more than two opponents would clearly be a raise for value.

With a pocket pair before the flop, you are 7.5:1 to flop a set or better. This implies you need a bit over 7 bets going into the pot for each bet you put in. So to answer your question, I think you should raise with small/medium pocket pairs out of the blinds if you have seven opponents or more, since, although seven is not "7.5", your raise does add deception to your play and may ties dudes in to the river with one pair hands that are drawing near dead.

But even with seven opponents, I don't think you can call the raise a "value raise" solely on the basis of flopping a set or better. Someone may have done a "two dimes" analysis which shows 88 wins more than its fair share vs. 7 opponents with reasonable hands and justify the "value raise" moniker, but from the odds perpective you would need more money going in vs. the odds of hitting your hand. Money already in the pot does not matter. Too much coffee this morning thanks for reading this far.

[Sarge85]

I wouldn't cap 88 preflop, in EP. Actually can't think of when I'd cap 88 PF.

Guess that makes me weak-tight. Since I'm sure that there is a time and place for everything.

Sarge /images/graemlins/diamond.gif