Double Gutter Problem

[Gabe]

It was a fairly typical Hollywood Park 20/40, a 9 on the loose scale, a 7 on the aggressive scale. There are five limpers.

I have J7o in the BB.

Flop is 9 8 5 rainbow.

I check.

EP, a loose, somewhat aggressive, somewhat tricky player, checks.

MP1, a conservative player bets.

MP2, a player who is, at this point in time, average, calls.

LP, a player who has maniacal tendencies before and on the flop calls. (LP will also pay-off with some real weak stuff.)

We loose someone.

I call with my double gutter.[b]

[b]EP now raises. MP1 reraises. MP2 calls. LP caps.

It still the flop and three more to me.

[PokerPrince]

I bail here. Too easy for you to be drawing to a tie. Interesting situation though.

PokerPrince

[Ulysses]

I fold because I'd get confused thinking about whether or not I should call when there are probably 3 sixes left but I'll probably just chop with those and even when I hit my ten on the turn which is probably good except for the times MP2 got himself stuck in there convincing himself his JQ overcard outs are good as well and if so I'll pay him off like a slot machine and then even when I hit the ten and it is good there are still 2 or 3 hands with big redraws against me and I'll pay them off on the river and other times the turn will be a blank and I'll be potstuck in the middle drawing to my hand that I'm pretty sure will be good if I hit it and then that'll end up getting more expensive than I really want but hey I got this far what's another bet oh crap that guy check-reraised now oh well now I'm really stuck and I hope that ten falls on the river oh except for that MP2 who really looks desperate now which makes me think he really might have QJ.

Too much stress for this hand. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Good post.

[andyfox]

I'd fold because it sure seems possible somebody already has a straight, so the bottom half of your belly buster is for only half the pot (and it's not impossible somebody in this crowd has T-7); and you have to worry about someone having Q-J if you hit the top half. I'd like it better if I had confidence in the possibility that a jack would give me the best hand, which I don't. And most likely it's going to be expensive to see the river card.

[nykenny]

well said. agree.

[Ulysses]

Please stop copying my answers, Andy.

[Depraved]

By my count, you're getting 13-3 for an 8 outer. Since it's clear you can't count on seeing the river card, the pot odds needed to see the turn with your 8 outer is over 4.8-1, and you're barely getting 4.3-1, and that's assuming you have a unique draw to the nuts. Of course, you could be drawing to a tie, or could make 2nd place.

It looks like a clear fold, unless you feel the implied odds are extraordinary.

[andyfox]

No.

[The best joke I ever heard about copying/cheating is the one Woody Allen tells. He claims he was kicked out of N.Y.U. because he cheated on a metaphysics exam: he looked into the soul of the boy sitting next to him.]

[Gabe]

I folded for the same reasons, as you guys would have. I figured I was drawing to half on the low end and not the nuts on the high end, since QJ was possibly out there.

Turn was a Q, which would have given me the effectual nut draw.

River was a T.

A set of 8’s took it down. The original flop bettor said he had two pair.

I don’t think any of the other players at the table would have folded in my spot. I’ve been loosing big pots and winning small ones lately. Just wanted some confirmation. Thanks.

[andyfox]

What was the action on the turn?

[Depraved]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif Don't know what I was smoking yesterday, but after looking at the post again, it looks like you're getting 19-3 if everyone after you folds, and 23-3 if everyone calls. That's over 6-1 and almost 8-1 respectively which makes me wonder if you shouldn't have actually called?? It at least seems feasible with those numbers.

While QJ is possible, I think it's more likely you have a unique draw to the high end of the straight. While you might have tied for the bottom, the pot odds would appear to compensate for this.

The only problem is the redraw to a full house, so it seems like this is a real problem to ponder over some more.

[Gabe]

Don't remember exactly. Only one bet on the turn. Called twice or three times. I think river was checked around.