Only 37% see flop at $2/$4,,,Plugging Leaks

[Redhotman]

While looking through my poker tracker database I noticed the feature that showed the average percent of people who saw the flop. My averages for all of my 2/4 sessions came out to 37% . Isnt this low? Is there something I'm missing here?

I have noticed a couple of leaks in my game. One I limp from EP with hands like 45s, Axs, QTs and end up getting raised from LP. There are 3-4 to flop and I check-fold the flop often. I feel that pairs can be played from any position, but I am starting to doubt Axs, and suited connectors from EP. Opinions?

Another leak I have is trying to fold out the blinds.
If the blinds wil constantly defend 75% of the time, should I be raising less or more? I have read in books that it is best to use tighter raising standards when they defend constantly. But arent you losing EV by not raising?

[Mike Gallo]

Redhot,

So far I have averaged 22%.

[Redhotman]

[ QUOTE ]
Redhot,

So far I have averaged 22%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, no.... I am talking about the average percent of players seeing the flop at the table...

(I see 19%)

[mauisupaman]

Red,
I hate limping in front with suited connectors and Axs. So, I stopped. But if I do find a table that is always loose and always passive then I play more of those hands up front, but that's a rare occurance.

And if the blinds are defending constantly then you gotta tighten up. If you raise the blinds with a wide range of hands and they're defending then you have less +EV. This is b/c you gain +EV by raising with a wide range of hands if you expect the blinds to fold alot (so you don't neccessarily need to have a better hand than them). But if they start defending then you loose that advantage. So, you tighten up with the presumption that they'll be calling often and you'll have the better hand when they do.

[sucka]

There are better games out there than ones with less than 4 of 10 seeing a flop, but it's hard to control that. I'd say that's not a bad average. I have several hundred hands in my DB from .5/1 games I've played and the average there is a smidgen under 50%. Now, that's more like it. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[taxat]

[ QUOTE ]
My averages for all of my 2/4 sessions came out to 37%. Isnt this low?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think 37% is probably a tad high. I usually play 1/2 at Party. I only have a small sample size (8 sessions at 697 minutes), but my ASF is 37.55%. When I include 3 sessions of .50-1 @ 324 minutes, the ASF jumps to 43.26. I would have expected the ASF at 2/4 to drop down to at least to 33%.

I see 19% also.

[taxat]

[ QUOTE ]
So far I have averaged 22%.

[/ QUOTE ]

You aren't that loose MG. After 5.68 hours of observation, I have you down at 20.25%.

[Bob T.]

37% is a very beatable game.

The average player in this game is seeing 1.5 more flops per lap than you are, they have to be making some significant preflop mistakes. You have to remember, that a couple of your opponents are likely playing as tight as you are, so to get up to that number, you probably need 1 or 2 50+% players in the mix.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel that pairs can be played from any position, but I am starting to doubt Axs, and suited connectors from EP. Opinions?

[/ QUOTE ]

I almost alwys plays Axs in any position at party Poker 2/4. (Of course, not first in in MP, u need some callers in MP, first in in LP its a raise)

You can hit flush, 2 pair, low straigt and sometimes even win with that A, no kicker (headsup against someone betting his QQ all way, just call him down /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

The main reason to not play Axs in these loose, rather passive games are that you almost always goes to showdown when an A flop. If you do that - for example coldcalling flop when AQ9 rainbow hit - then Ax is dangerous from any position.

Suited connectors is also good, always play them after 2 limpers. At these tables people often pay you good when you hit a hand.

Of course its not good if someone raises behind. But a good thing with 2/4 is that almost always some players coldcall, so you aint isolated having to pay like 2 of 4-5 SB, rather 2 of 10SB.

I think Im playing looser then most other winning players at theses tables. I play 30% (incl. free play). I win about 4.5 BB/hour (250 hours) and table. Im not sure if this is good or not that good.

[tpir90036]

i only have a handful of sessions of 2/4 party where the table was under 40%. my overall 2/4 session average is 41.6% (i am just under 20% personally). then again, i like to shop around before i sit down, and i play more on the weekends than i do during the week.

[Webster]

I average about 23% and think I'm hi. Most games I play are in the 40% range for the rest of the table and I'd LIKE to get below 20% for a solid game!

I toss a lot of Aces away (as I should).

[Redhotman]

[ QUOTE ]
I average about 23% and think I'm hi. Most games I play are in the 40% range for the rest of the table and I'd LIKE to get below 20% for a solid game!

I toss a lot of Aces away (as I should).

[/ QUOTE ]
At 23% you are probally playing qj, jt, kj, at too much

[BigEndian]

I'm a sinful 32%. But then, I'm a bit off in the head.

- Groove

[GAK Attack]

I play UltimateBet (does that make me a traitor?), and also play 1/2 tables and see around 25-30% of the flops. Does this seem too high?

[rkiray]

Wow you definitely have holes in your game. 19% flops seen is a good number. But playing small pairs, suited connectors and any suited A in early position is really bad. Since you are playing too many hands early there are hands you should be playing that you arn't. Any ideas what they may be?

[Hellrazor]

Are you all including all flops (blinds and non as well)?

I'm pretty sure I need to tighten my pre-flop. My first 1300 hands or so I think I am average approx 30% to the flop (incl. blinds)

First thing I found is that I call way too much from small blind. Time to study up my HPFAP pre-flop - incidentally, I own that book and WLLHP - which pre-flop strategy is generally considered to be the better for LL online poker? (.5/1 at paradise maybe 1/2 at party and say 2-4/3-6 B&M)

thanks

[BigEndian]

It depends on the limits he's playing. Granted, my % is not ideal. But if he's sitting at anything under 3/6, a 25% rate is great imo and probably ideal.

The post-flop play of the people sitting at these tables is, for the vast majority, horrible.

- Groove

[MaxPower]

rkiray,

I don't understand this at all. I assume most 2/4 Party games are loose and not too aggressive. I don't see a problem with playing Axs, all pairs, and suited connectors (as long as they are not too low) for one bet in early position.

In fact if the 19% includes seeing the flop for free in the Big Blind, I think Redhotman is playing too tight. Its hard to tell because the statistics don't tell the whole story.

Maybe I am misinterpreting what you are saying?

[BigEndian]

Hellrazor, don't use me as a borometer. I do a lot of experimentation and general goofing off. Which has it's advantages, but it puts large variances in your roll.

In general, 30%+ is too high.

RE books: My suggestion is to read them both, play a lot of hands, and come up with a style of play that you think works for you and post a lot of hands.

- Groove

[Hellrazor]

Sorry to bother with this question again, but is that 30% with or without including free looks from the blind?

[rkiray]

I used to think a rate of around 25-27 % was ideal in Paradise 2/4 and 3/6 games. But I started to notice all the players I thought were really good and tough to play against were in the 17-22% range. My win rate consistently went up as I lowered my preflop percentage from 31% (when I started my database) down to 21% where it is now. Admitedly if the game is loose and passive you can play more hands, but he says 37% is his average table. I've been considering 35-37 is about the normal tables I play at (I don't think pokerstat has this number, it estimates this number for any specific table you load with opponents, but I don't think it shows historical numbers). So 37 is not a loose table.

[rkiray]

He says his average table is 37% seeing the flop. I don't consider that loose. Paradise is generally considered tougher than Party, but I generally don't have trouble finding tables in the 35-37% range at 3/6, can often find them at 5/10. I do occasionally have to drop down to 2/4, but I've never had a problem at that level. But no way do I consider 37 a loose table. I generally call a table loose above 40. And to be playing the hands he's playing I'd want the table to be in the high 40%.

[Lost Wages]

Realize that when a tight-aggressive player sits down, the table average will drop for a number of reasons:

1) By virtue of you being at the table (seeing 19% of flops) the table average will be lower.

2) More preflop raising (by you) reduces the number of players seeing the flop.

3) Limping encourages limping. With you limping less than the player you replaced, the money in the pot is less which discourages players behind you from limping.

You should expect that games you are in will have a lower "players seing the flop %" than games you observe.

Lost Wages

[BigEndian]

Including the blinds. So that's 10% outside the blinds.

- Groove

[MaxPower]

37% is the average of his sessions. I don't know whether pokertracker takes a weighted average for this, but I still think that that is loose enough to play the hands you are talking about. When you have an average of about 4 players seeing each flop, you can play these hands profitably.

I have about 22,000 hands at party 3/6 in pokertracker. The ASF is 35. In these games, I am winning money in early position with A9s-A2s, 88-22, and large suited connectors. My sample is not huge, but I am pretty sure these hands are profitable.

These games are not loose-passive compared to a typical B&M game, but they are good enough.

The 5/10 games on Party are slightly tighter and more aggressive, so I don't play them as much.

You need to look at each table individually and decide whether the hand is profitable.