Too aggressive?

[BillW]

Micro limits on PokerStars (ok, $.05/$.10 -- but I was down to $.65 and I'm now back over $40)

Two limpers to me in CO-1 holding Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I raise. CO and Button call, blinds fold.

UTG+1 makes it three; one call, one fold, I call, CO and Button call.

Five see the flop for 15SB: 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

UTG+1 bets. One fold, I call, CO and Button call. Four left and 9 1/2 BB. Turn is 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

UTG+1 bets. I call. CO and Button fold. Two left and 11 1/2 BB: 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

UTG+1 bets. I call.

I was racked with doubt from beginning to end. Almost sure I was beaten at the end, but I have seen some strange things played to the river.

I don't suppose I need to tell anyone here how it came out (hint -- I didn't really have any outs).

Maybe I needed to raise on the flop to see if it really hit him? Any help would be appreciated.

--Bill

[GuyOnTilt]

Interesting that this came up, 'cause I was talking with ThingDo about this earlier today. With as small of a bankroll as you have, you should not be making variance-increasing plays like raising QTs in LP after limpers PF. Your bankroll simply can't handle plays like this, and they'll greatly incrase your RoR.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting that this came up, 'cause I was talking with ThingDo about this earlier today. With as small of a bankroll as you have, you should not be making variance-increasing plays like raising QTs in LP after limpers PF. Your bankroll simply can't handle plays like this, and they'll greatly incrase your RoR.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you suggesting that raising prima facie increases your variance? There are lots of instances in which raising *reduces* your variance, especially at the higher limits. For example, I'm fairly certain that open-raising with AA reduces your variance as opposed to open-limping.

[Nottom]

His BR is 400BB for the limits he is at ... why should varience be a problem?

[GuyOnTilt]

He said that at one point he was down to 6.5 BB's, so I'm assuming he worked his way back up to the 600 BB level, but if this hand took place when our hero was anywhere under 100 BB's, I don't like the preflop raise.

[Bob T.]

You raised preflop, and you flopped top pair. On the flop, when it is still four handed, you should probably raise the flop. The CO, and button will still fold, but your opponent might three bet now, or he might checkraise the turn, or you could check behind on the turn if you were checked to. After any of those actions, you wouldn't be playing the hand wracked with doubt.

You probably played without enough aggression here.

The tone of your post, makes it sound like you are concerned with whether or not you win this hand, and that calling your opponent down when he was ahead, was a mistake. It may or may not have been.

What you need to do, is instead make your goal to play winning poker. You will lose a lot of hands in this process, and also call down a lot of people who have better hands than yours. You will also make bets into the stone cold nuts. Make good decisions, make good plays, make good reads, and act on them, and at the end of the month (notice I didn't say day) you will most likely be ahead.

Every day that you play, post a hand that you had a tough decision on, we'll try and help you through the process, and not only will you become a better player, so will those of us who are active in this process.

[Bob T.]

I think that raising QT suited after there are already players in the pot, probably increases your variance. I don't think you could really argue that, can you.

[Nate tha' Great]

I can argue anything, Bob, but in this case, I can't do it credibly. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Mostly, I was responding to silliness with silliness, since it's hard to believe that bankroll considerations ought ever to effect proper +EV play at these limits.

[Bob T.]

Nate, Thanks, I laughed out loud at my computer. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[hockey1]

The preflop raise is questionable, but then I think you should've raised UTG+1 on the flop to try to get it heads up. If you're 3-bet you can then call and fold to a bet on the turn if you don't improve.

[BillW]

Thanks to everyone. I'll probably pass on the next opportunity to raise QTs with four other people in the pot; but start thinking about a raise on my right on the flop as less of a threat and more of an opportunity to fold out everyone else.

I'll be back!

[GuyOnTilt]

...it's hard to believe that bankroll considerations ought ever to effect proper +EV play at these limits.

I disagree with this statement. If you're under-bankrolled, the variance of your plays should be a factor. I always keep myself properly bankrolled so I just choose the play with the highest EV, but for those with short rolls, variance should be taken into consideration.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
...it's hard to believe that bankroll considerations ought ever to effect proper +EV play at these limits.

I disagree with this statement. If you're under-bankrolled, the variance of your plays should be a factor. I always keep myself properly bankrolled so I just choose the play with the highest EV, but for those with short rolls, variance should be taken into consideration.


[/ QUOTE ]

My point is more that the amount of money you have in your account at a particular poker site is not the same thing as your bankroll. "Risk of Ruin" here doesn't mean having to give up poker in the near-term, or suffering financial hardship in other areas of your life, or compromising your psychological well-being, as it might at higher limits - it just means having to redeposit, or playing at other sites where you have an account.

At one point yesterday morning, my U/B account had exactly $0.19 in it after paying a tournament entry fee, but my RoR was precisely zero.

[GuyOnTilt]

My point is more that the amount of money you have in your account at a particular poker site is not the same thing as your bankroll. "Risk of Ruin" here doesn't mean having to give up poker in the near-term, or suffering financial hardship in other areas of your life, or compromising your psychological well-being, as it might at higher limits - it just means having to redeposit, or playing at other sites where you have an account.

Your point is a good one. Now that I'm playing to pay the bills, I forget about the reload factor. I have no real chance to reload if I go broke, because I have no income outside of poker, so things like bankroll management, RoR, and variance are real concerns for me. I guess for the purposes of this forum, they aren't huge factors and I'll try not to put so much emphasis on them in future posts.

Thanks,

GoT

[rkiray]

Raising with hands that need to improve to win (suited connector, small and medium pairs being the prime examples) increases your variance since you will usually throw them away, but you occassionally win large pots. Raising with hands that don't need to improve such as AA and KK would probably lower your variance.