Sometimes I feel so stupid : A9o in the CO

[GuyOnTilt]

Party 3/6, no reads on opponents. I'm dealt A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif in the CO. All fold to MP who limps, 1 fold to me and I raise. BB and MP call.

Flop comes: A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Both check, I bet, both call.

Turn comes: 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif[A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif]

Both check, I bet, only MP calls.

River comes: K /images/graemlins/spade.gif[7 /images/graemlins/spade.gifA /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif]

MP checks. Do I have any sort of value in a bet here??? Sorry if this is an easy one, but I had to think about it for a while, and I honestly just wasn't sure what would be best. Like I was seriously lost on what to do here. I know that this decision will only really win or lose me the smallest fraction of a bet, but any EV I can gain is EV I want!

Any and all comments are appreciated.

[Joe Tall]

Bet it and if it's the right player fold to the check-raise.

Don't feel stupid, this is a good hand to post. We are all here to help each other.

Peace,
JT

[thomastem]

The heart flush and gut shot straight draw folds to a bet. A King he raises and you lose 1 or 2 bets. An ace with a kicker is most likely IMO. Your Pre flop raise may have gotten him to put you on big slick as a strong possible, at least to the river. This would be a good explanation for passive as would the flush draw. Do you believe his kicker is weaker than yours? I think A with a kicker of Q-10 is likely and he calls you lose a bet.

My Goat says Check-Call.

[MRBAA]

I'd fold pre-flop.

Since you played, and given that the flop had an ace and king, hard to belive MP would stay without one or the other. And I'm not loving your kicker. I think it's only a bet against a known "any ace" player who would have raised the flop with a kicker better than yours.

[GuyOnTilt]

I think A with a kicker of Q-10 is likely.

I had a hard time putting my opponent on these hands because he open-limped from MP. But since I had no reads on him, I wasn't able to rule them out completely.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd fold pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop w/A9o and a raise is questionable, I agree. I'd probably fold this preflop not that I think about it. However, I wouldn't limp with it and I like the way Guy played it here.

Good point to bring up,
Joe Tall

[GuyOnTilt]

I'd fold pre-flop.

Really? I thought this was an easy raise. Maybe I'm making mistakes raising in LP with offsuit hands after 1 limper...here are some marginal hands I'd raise with: A9o, ATo, KTo, KJo, QJo. Am I making mistakes in this regard?

EDIT: With 2 limpers to me, I'd muck A9o, QJo, and sometimes KTo depending on how well the limpers played. I'd raise the others.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Really? I thought this was an easy raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I haven't had real confidence in A9o lately, but it's only after one limper and if you are sure you can isolate, you're good.

I'd play ATo like this if that helps.

Peace,
JT

[Bob T.]

I think you do, but as you said, it is thin. One thing that is nice about this hand, is that I don't think that you have to call a checkraise, so it can cost you one bet at most.

[J.R.]

here are some marginal hands I'd raise with: A9o, ATo, KTo, KJo, QJo. Am I making mistakes in this regard?

Depends on who limped and how tight the blinds are. I don't think QJo should be played this way but I often play the other hands in a similar fashion.

[Robk]

Here are some possible hand ranges, and what you should do against each:

1. This is what I would expect from a typical loose player: A8, 6, 5, 4, or 2 you beat and KT, 9, 8 beat you. The aces are 40 combos and the Kings are 22. Throw in some fudge hands (eg 88, 43s, 7h8h, etc.). You have the best hand ~ 65% of the time you get action and should bet.

2. Against an aggressive opponent: Now the aces are all but eliminated since you would have gotten action earlier in the hand. The only hand you'll be getting action from here is a K, or the "fudge hands". Easy check.

3. Against a good player: There's little chance he has an A or a K as he would have raised preflop. You're going to be looking at a busted draw almost every time. Easy Check.

4. Against a passive player: The same as the "typical party player" analysis but now you could be looking at an ace with a better kicker (an additional 24 hands). This pushes it to a check.

[MaxPower]

This is obvious, but it depends on what kinds of hands he will call with and how he perceives you.

Given that you have no read and your opponent played the hand very passively I would say bet. There are many low limit players who automatically go into check call mode when they are raised no matter what hand they have. He may just call with a better hand because he fears AK and will call with some that are worse.

I also don't think A9 is a good hand to try to isolate this player with. If you knew that they blinds were tight and the player was weak-tight, then you have a shot.

[Bob T.]

I'd fold pre-flop.


You have one opponent, who open limped in middle position. I would raise with a lot worse than this in this position, and expect to win on the flop a lot of the time.

[Homer]

Against a single opponent, I'd usually bet. I realize that with this board, your opponent probably has an Ace or nothing (a busted flush draw or a missed gutshot with QJ/QT/JT), but if he does have an Ace it will usually be worse (especially with the K coming -- A3 and A7 are now worthless), and I wouldn't be surprised if he called you with a random pocket pair or a 7. Not many opponents at this limit will fold a made hand on the river, heads-up, for one more bet, regardless of its value.

Something I did recently that was very beneficial to me was downloading 100 hands from Party, and going through them one by one, trying to guess the range of hands of players who called river bets. I was astounded at what they were calling with. Try this and I suspect you'll never see this as an iffy value bet again.

-- Homer

[squiffy]

If you have no read on your opponent, isn't it fairly safe to assume he has A no kicker or second pair? He would have to be an idiot to call with 63offsuit. Though I guess he could have 6,3 of hearts and be calling with a four-flush and a pair.

Since I am a newbie this is interesting to me. I guess the question is, what percentage of the time will the guy have Kings and raise you?

There is also a small problem of a bluff raise by Ace no kicker.

I think check and call is best. But I have no statistical support for my inclination.

But, for what it's worth, I did lose $40 playing 2-4 live yesterday, and I did win $25 today playing 2-4 live.

So take my weak tight advice with a packet of equal.

[nykenny]

one of the reason having position is the greatest thing in Hold'em is that you can now check behind. and you opponent won't bet his K because you checked.

Kenny

[Homer]

I guess the question is, what percentage of the time will the guy have Kings and raise you?

In my experience, opponents at this limit will rarely check-raise rivered trips. Usually they bet right into me.

There is also a small problem of a bluff raise by Ace no kicker.

This is even more rare. Only a small subset of players do this, and they do it every time. In other words, there aren't many solid players who bluff-raise the river here, because they expect to be called by an Ace or three-bet by a King since the person you are checkraising is the PFR. Tricky and solid is a rare breed at PP.

I think check and call is best.

Note that GOT is in last position.

-- Homer

[Homer]

one of the reason having position is the greatest thing in Hold'em is that you can now check behind. and you opponent won't bet his K because you checked.

Another great thing about position is that you can value bet more hands than you can from out of position, since a check from an opponent is more often a sign of weakness than it is of being tricky. In this hand, I'd probably check from out of position, but I'd definitely bet the river if checked to.

-- Homer

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
I think A with a kicker of Q-10 is likely.

I had a hard time putting my opponent on these hands because he open-limped from MP. But since I had no reads on him, I wasn't able to rule them out completely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying typical opponents will raise pre-flop with A-10 or jack? I find a good amount limp in with A-Q at 3-6.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd fold pre-flop.

Really? I thought this was an easy raise. Maybe I'm making mistakes raising in LP with offsuit hands after 1 limper...here are some marginal hands I'd raise with: A9o, ATo, KTo, KJo, QJo. Am I making mistakes in this regard?

EDIT: With 2 limpers to me, I'd muck A9o, QJo, and sometimes KTo depending on how well the limpers played. I'd raise the others.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd track this to see if you're profitable. Different styles would effect the EV on these quite a bit.

[GuyOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think A with a kicker of Q-10 is likely.

I had a hard time putting my opponent on these hands because he open-limped from MP. But since I had no reads on him, I wasn't able to rule them out completely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying typical opponents will raise pre-flop with A-10 or jack? I find a good amount limp in with A-Q at 3-6.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, they do. But not when it's all folds to them in MP. Unless my opponent is a HUGE preflop wuss, he should be raising ATo and AJo first in from MP. And there's no doubt that he doesn't have AQo in this spot, unless he's an atrocious player.

[lil']

If mp plays poorly and there's a good chance of folding the blinds and button, I like the raise with A-9o.

[squiffy]

Thanks Homer. Learn something new from you every day.

[squiffy]

But guy's been betting and calling all the way. And your advice to him is to bet out in this position if checked to. So why wouldn't the guy check 3 Kings, if you can expect a decent preflop raiser and lead bettor to bet out here?????

[Homer]

I'm not saying that they shouldn't checkraise trip Kings, just that they don't.

-- Homer

[Munga30]

If you made these raises to get heads-up with a weak limper and the remaining players will cooperate, then I think it's ok. Otherwise, start weeding out some of these hands, starting with A9 and KT.

[squiffy]

Boy, you always have an answer don't you!!!

[GuyOnTilt]

It sounds like the forum's pretty much split between checking through and value betting here against an unknown opponent at these stakes online. Sorry I couldn't give a read to make things eaiser...

It appears to be pretty much split between my preflop raise and folding as well, though a few more people think I should muck it than raise it. I personally think this is a good time to play A9o, and obviously to play it you must raise it. So far I can't say that anybody's convinced me of any reasons not to raise in this spot. But I'm still open!!

Oh yes, right, right, a winner and such. Well.....I WON! I decided to value bet on the end. MP called and my hand was good. Hand History shows he had A /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

BTW, for those of you who don't get the Pumpkin Carvival reference, you must discover the joy of Homestar. /images/graemlins/grin.gif