Big blind hand. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

rkiray

10-31-2003, 02:24 PM

UB 3/6 tight 30% seeing flop, this is happening because there is above average number of raises preflop. Post flop things are fairly normal. 8 handed at the moment.

I'm in the BB with K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Folded to MP1 who raises, MP2 cold calls, folded to me who calls.

Flop : 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, MP1 bets, MP2 folds, I raise, MP1 reraises, I call. Anyone cap?

Turn : 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

check, bet, I raise, he reraises, I call. Another missed cap?

River : 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, he calls. What did he have?

ElSapo

10-31-2003, 02:31 PM

Pre-Flop... I don't know if I like the call, except you said there were an above average number of pre-flop raises, so arguably it could be a wide range of hands.

Flop... No cap, probably not - it looks like there's a decent chance you're behind at this point (given no read on MP1).

Turn... I don't cap here either, not after he three-bets after your checkraise (which I like a lot). He could have KK, QQ, or KQ that you're behind. He's showing a lot of strength of AK.

River... I'd probably bet out here as well, rather than risk it being checked through, though I don't think there's too much of a chance he'll raise you and allow a three-bet.

I think you played it fine. Pre-flop is the question for me, but I don't cap either the flop or river. Well, I might cap the flop, actually, if I'm in one of those moods, but I'm not sure it's right.

Bob T.

10-31-2003, 02:32 PM

Cap the flop.

The turn is tougher, I think I respect his three bet.

After putting in that much action, on previous streets, I would have gone for a checkraise on the river.

If he didn't have a set, I think he overplayed his hand.

Bob T.

10-31-2003, 02:35 PM

If it is three handed when it gets to you, I think that you should play any two suited for a single bet in the big blind when it gets to you. K7 is a lot better than any two suited.

Nottom

10-31-2003, 02:37 PM

I'm gonna guess he had a big set after the turn aggression.

With position, I would likely go ahead and cap it. Heads up out of position I think calling is fine.

I would have checkraised the river, since it would be really hard for him to put you on a flush draw given the way you played the hand and he seems to have a big hand and should be less likely to check behind.

Nottom

10-31-2003, 02:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think that you should play any two suited for a single bet in the big blind when it gets to you. K7 is a lot better than any two suited.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is way too loose.

I'm not going to play random suited cards from the button after 4 limpers for one bet, getting the same odds so I'm certainly not going to play them out of position.

That being said, I would happily play K7s there so this can't be too wrong if it is.

ThingDo

10-31-2003, 02:42 PM

I agree, complete the trifecta of checkraises... check raise the river. I would have a hard time putting you on a flush draw after you've check raised twice.

rkiray

10-31-2003, 02:45 PM

He didn't have a set.

rkiray

10-31-2003, 02:51 PM

Preflop, this guy was one of the most agr. raisers at the table. He has already open raised in mp with A3 /images/graemlins/club.gifs and 22. But I always put in one more bet with K7s, but I think I may overdefend my big blind.

Flop - If there were more people to pay off my flush draw I would have capped. I did think about it before just calling.

ElSapo

10-31-2003, 02:53 PM

If he didn't have a set, I think he overplayed his hand.

From the way you say you would cap the flop (and it sounded like you wanted to cap the turn, maybe, a little) isn't this overplaying your hand as well?

Top pair and a flush draw is a great hand, I agree. But all indications are, thus far, that we're behind.

Now, if we can cap the river, I say go for it...

Bob T.

10-31-2003, 03:11 PM

On the flop, when you flop pair plus flush draw, you are a favorite to make two pair or better. You can cap for value. Capping here, also has the advantage of disguising your hand if you flop a monster hand, because you can now play those hands fast, and your opponents who have been paying attention might put you on a lessor hand. You get the best of both worlds by capping here, you make value with this hand, and you are playing in such a way that your opponents are more likely to pay you off when you flop a monster.

ElSapo

10-31-2003, 03:25 PM

Hey Bob.... Yeah, it's close, if he's up against AK or so, I ran it thru two dimes and it's almost a tossup. Are you basically saying the deception value on the draw makes up for the overlay on the other side? As well as money already in the pot?

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Qs 3s Kc
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks 7s 444 44.85 534 53.94 12 1.21 0.455
Ad Kd 534 53.94 444 44.85 12 1.21 0.545

Nottom

10-31-2003, 03:28 PM

Another two dimes sim.

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Qs 3s Kc
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks 7s 493 49.80 497 50.20 0 0.00 0.498
Ac Ah 497 50.20 493 49.80 0 0.00 0.502

Just shows how strong this hand really is.

ML4L

10-31-2003, 03:32 PM

Hey rkiray,

I think you played it properly postflop, but I would fold preflop...

If you hadn't explicitly asked what he held, I would guess top two or a set. Since you asked, I'll guess overplayed aces...

ML4L

jaybee_70

10-31-2003, 03:35 PM

I think he had AK or KQs. Either way I don't think I cap here or try to check raise the river. I would be hoping for him to lay down a better hand by betting rather than trying to extract more bets on a flush draw. Is that weak thinking?

Joe

ElSapo

10-31-2003, 03:35 PM

I hadn't considered that... Thanks.

I agree the hand is strong, I just didn't know if capping was right on either street. I think now I'd be inclined to cap the flop, though not the turn. I like the CR though on the turn.

ElSapo

10-31-2003, 03:43 PM

rkiray

10-31-2003, 04:06 PM

He definitely overplayed his AKo. I doubt that he would have bet the river. I wouldn't have with his hand. What do you guys think?

ElSapo

10-31-2003, 04:20 PM

He definitely overplayed his AKo. I doubt that he would have bet the river. I wouldn't have with his hand. What do you guys think?

Overplayed, but you were right not to cap the turn. I've been re-convinced otherwise on the flop, however.

Nottom

10-31-2003, 04:32 PM

No, I wouldn't have with AK here either after all that action.

If he had a habit of raising and checking behind, then I think your river bet is better than a checkraise.

rkiray

10-31-2003, 04:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If he had a habit of raising and checking behind, then I think your river bet is better than a checkraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, I don't understand this comment. Could you expand on it please?

Homer

10-31-2003, 05:12 PM

Preflop - I'd fold K7s from the BB, getting 5:1. I have a feeling many of the resident experts will disagree with me, but personally I don't think my postflop skills are high enough to make this hand profitable.

Flop - I wouldn't cap unless I had position and/or there was another player still in the hand. At best you're drawing to 14 outs, which makes you about even money to get there, but you could be drawing at fewer outs if your opponent has a better K, AA or a set.

Turn - I definitely would not cap here. You are definitely behind against most opponents.

River - I would have gone for the checkraise, as your opponent most likely has a set and certainly can't put you on a spade draw, given the action you put in on the turn. I might bet if my opponent was overaggressive and would raise with a set, allowing me to three-bet.

-- Homer

Bob T.

10-31-2003, 05:52 PM

Your opponent doesn't necessarily have top pair, he might also have something like JT of spades ('I always raise, its my favorite hand /images/graemlins/grin.gif'), or A and J or T of spades, and have decided to three bet the flop for value/free card. In both of those cases, you are a clear favorite to win with this flop.

jaybee_70

10-31-2003, 06:10 PM

Sapo,
After thinking about this I agree that a better hand will not fold here. So that leads to the question. . . if you know you are raising a better hand why not cap it and build the biggest possible pot for your flush? or just call it down to the river? Why reraise at all if you don't intend to cap it? I think it is pretty clear that GOT is behind after being reraised on the flop. Is the answer based on pot or implied odds?
Thanks,
Joe

rkiray

10-31-2003, 06:28 PM

On the flop, I'm about a 2:1 dog to make my flush by showdown. So against 2 opponents it's about an even money bet. Against 3 or more opponents its definitely a good bet. Against a single opponent I didn't like it. But I do like Bob T's argument about how it adds deception to my game. I now think I should have capped the flop. I posted this hand mainly to hear what people would do on the flop and the turn because I definitely thought about capping and didn't. So I figured this was a hand worth discussing.