How to plug this leak?

When you raise before the flop and hit, whether “hitting” is an A for your AK on an uncoordinated board, a 9 for your 99, or a J-8-5 board vs AA, when do you go for the check-raise on the turn?


With few opponents or many?

On a coordinated or uncoordinated board?

When the probable better is on your immediate right, or on your left? (Narrowing the field vs. building the pot with a probable best hand)

Something else?


My problem is that I am SO paranoid about giving free cards that I almost never check raise the turn after raising preflop. I am looking for some situations to do this, particularly when I hit the flop, as opposed to doing it with a strong draw.


Also, I am trying to counter the frequent bet from the position player when I check the turn in a heads up situation with a hand like AK on a coordinated board.


Thanks,


Clark

If an opponent isn't getting the right odds to chase and will correctly fold if you bet, then giving a free card is by definition costing you LESS than a single bet. If it were worth more he'd have the right odds to call. So lets not get all paranoid about giving free cards. It costs far more to give "free" cards ..err.. "cheap" cards to those who are going to call.


Check-raising when you have made a good hand is mostly a function of the assertiveness of the opponents. If the opponents are likely to bet then usually check. Yes, consider the position of the likely better (to your left/right) and whether or not you want to narrow the field.


Lets assume your post means you raises B4 flop, flop is good, and you are considing checking on the flop (lets not worry about the turn now). An important consideration is whether checking will look "natural" to the opponents which usually means you would in fact check if you got a bad flop. Don't check KK if you would bet AJ.


You will need to mix it up at times; don't always do the same thing.


- Louie

I think you already plugged a leak. Here's a situation typical of those where a check-raise on the turn looks like a dandy play. We raise preflop with AK and flop an ace and we bet and we get called from behind by a player who very likely holds an ace. It comes down to heads up. If we bet the turn and river, he pays off two bets while thinking, hoping, that we are power-driving our big pocket pair. If we check-raise the turn, we give the opponent a chance to fold his ace and save a bet, and lots of average players are capable of this laydown at mid-limits.


The way I think of it is, I bet with so many crap hands that I'll be damned if I'm going to check with a real hand. Of course there are exceptions, but in the long run, I think a default setting of bet-good-hands is best.


Tommy

i agree tommy, i do. and i think that is part of my problem. i have been check-raising a lot less lately. perhaps it is due to situational things (i.e. my opponents are too weak passive, they'd pay me off if i bet, but lay down or check if i go for a check raise, etc.) i think this is starting to be a hole in my game. im not sure how to fix it. it seems like i used to be able to spot very well the times when a check raise is appropriate, and when it isn't. i don't know if i've gotten worse as a player, or what, but i just don't happen to see these spots anymore. and if i start looking for spots to check-raise in, it may get me in trouble if i don't do it right. im not sure how to fix it. someone give me some advice, please!!

"but i just don't happen to see these spots anymore. and if i start looking for spots to check-raise in, it may get me in trouble if i don't do it right."


I might be in the minority given the recent growing popularity of check-raising the turn heads up. But I think it's way simpler, and more deceptive, and well, I dunno, it just feels good in my gut to bet out with a hand. I'd have a real hard time changing this policy, even it were somehow proven that another way is better. It'd be like changing my putting grip.


I think you're better off not "looking for spots to check-raise in" heads up on the turn. The turn-check itself is a form of gamble because it's a rare hand indeed where the check-raise can be known within reason to be better than betting out.


In general I reserve my turn check-raises for multi-way pots, and even then it's rarely planned. They develop sometimes as a reasonable spasm when I was planning to fold a modest pair and it gets checked around to the player on my right who bets on what looks like a steal. I think most of my best check-raises on the turn are of this kind. I'm one of those old-fashioned guys who bets when he hits the turn. With multiple players to act, it's so much easier to figure out what's going on.


The cool thing is, this looks all straight forward and predictable, but players still misread my hand frequently because I benefit from the doubts placed in their minds by the craftier check-raisers. To them, my thanks. :-)


Tommy

"In general I reserve my turn check-raises for multi-way pots, and even then it's rarely planned. They develop sometimes as a reasonable spasm when I was planning to fold a modest pair and it gets checked around to the player on my right who bets on what looks like a steal. I think most of my best check-raises on the turn are of this kind. "


This describes most of my check-raises. The other primary check raise is with any pair and a 4-flush or similar big draw. The problem is that I check raise VERY rarely. I want to mix things up more because the regulars in my games are astute enough to notice that the few times I do check raise I am semi-bluffing.


I am simply trying to find an opportunity to make the check raise with a legitimate hand to keep them off balance. I also want to do it once in a while to stop opponents from making the "automatic" bet behind me on the turn when heads up and I am sitting there with overcards or an underpair. Do I wait for the situation to be against an aggressive player as Louis mentioned, or simply throw it in randomly to mix things up?


I'm not talking about a drastic change in my play (As mentioned, I am paranoid in the extreme about giving free cards), but something to open eyes with once in a while...similar to Sklansky's "once in a while raise UTG with 6-7s" suggestion.


Thanks

I agree with Tommy here. If you by default bet good hands, and by default don't risk giving free cards, how big of a leak can it really be? Sure, you might miss the OCCASIONAL situation where check-raising is CLEARLY the best play, but giving a free card that costs you the pot is far worse than missing one bet on the turn. I think that rather than consider this a leak in your game, you should merely think of it like this:


There are undoubtedly a few situations where I am not taking such a huge risk by giving a free card, and it's more likely than not that I can get in a check-raise on the turn, so I should give a bit more consideration to check-raising in those situations.


Dave in Cali

I find the heads up turn check raise strategy works best against an opponent who plays an emotional game. This includes both "good" and "bad" players. Emotionally sensitive opponents tend to call both the raise and the lead bet on the river even if they are semi-bluffing or pushing marginal hands. Unattached and unemotional players are much more likely to fold to the check raise if they are pushing a marginal hand or semi-bluffing.


In either case, its also a good idea to have a read on the player that leads you to believe he/she leans toward the aggressive side as well.

I check-raise the turn heads-up after raising pre-flop maybe 1 time in a hundred for value. I honestly think it's a fish move, and I chuckle when people do it to me. Like I'll call a raise from the button with 99. The flop comes jack high rags, and I call. Another rag hits the turn and the guy check-raises. Wow, you flopped a set of jacks. And you cost yourself a big bet. Tricky.


Maybe 2 times in 100, I'll try to bluff check-raise the turn (if I miss with AK or something) if I think the opponent might be weak-tight. But like Tommy, I'm using the play of that "tricky" player as my costume, since I never do it for value, so it really only works vs. the unknown opps. And I always feel a little unclean after I do it.


Just remember what Doyle says. If you check your big hands, you might get two bets, but you might get zero bets. If you bet out, you definitely get one bet, and you might get three bets. Simple enough.


If you really want to integrate it into your game, then just go ahead and do it. Every now and then, instead of betting out, just say I'm going to check-raise this time. But I think to get the benefits from it, you'd have to do it a LOT more. You have to make your opponents fear it every time you check, which will get you free cards for your draws, and make them aware that you're capable of making the play with anything, so they'll pay you off with the same hands that they'd normally call with if you bet out.


But the downside of the free cards you give and the bets you miss just make it not worth it IMHO. I think the check-raise has it's value, but not in that situation.

thanks to all posters...a real problem in my game as i move into middle limits...however, i think checkraising generally has led to less total action overallnd when i think someone is playing at me they actually are bluffing with the best hand...gl

if I plan to check-raise and then no one bets, it gives me such a bad feeling I now allmost never try---UNLESS there is good reason to feel SURE there will be a bet.

I also don't make this play very often. I HATE missing bets and I HATE giving free cards more than I LOVE trapping someone for an extra big bet. Also, if you give away strength of your hand by check-raising they may muck a hand they would have called you down with. However, the most obvious times to make this play is against one or two opponents, one of them having raised you on the flop with what is likely only top pair when there are no obvious draws that they may be trying to hit, even better if you feel your opponent "distrusts" you. Another ideal spot to make this play is against an opponent who will raise you with a draw but bet the turn if you show weakness, now you make his draw more expensive but only by half a big bet as opposed to reraising the flop, and if he DOES take the free-card you miss a bet and a half--again most of the time I'd rather assure myself the extra small bet than risk missing the small bet and the turn bet.


Mike

I completely agree tommy. In the home-game I play at w/ the same guys twice a week, I hardly ever check a monster. I'll be if the flop is 884 and I have A8 in teh SB just as soon as I'd bet 77. Since everyone else expects you to slow play till the turn, I've won monster pots by getting pumped on the flop w/ people who are drawing thin to dead.


Example : Omaha-High only. I call in early-mid-position w/ QQT9. We see the flop 5 handed. Flop comes Q88 - two of a suit. Blinds check to me, I bet, get raised, call, call, call, I re-raise, the better re-raises, all call, I cap, all call. I bet all the way down and get called all the way down(two fold on teh river). River was a jack making the original raiser 8's(AJ8x) full and the caller made the straight.