The evils of cold-calling?

[spamuell]

This is just a quick question - what is inherently bad about cold calling? I find I rarely do it anyway, but I constantly see the advice repeated again and again "Don't call 2 bets cold. Raise or fold." (Wow, it rhymes!)

What is so intrinsically wrong about cold calling?

[GuyOnTilt]

Nothing is intrinsically wrong with cold-calling. It's just very rarely the best play. Since most players lack the ability to recognize these very rare instances, it's a good rule of thumb to fold anything but a 3-betting hand until you can aptly distinguish correct cold-calling situations. At least that's how I see it.

[spamuell]

What factors do you use to recognise these very rare instances? An example would be helpful, if you have time /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.
Thanks

[MaxPower]

Some hands play well shorthanded and some play well multi-way.

A multiway hand usually thrives on implied odds, cold-calling is generaly wrong because it reduces your implied odds.

When you have a hand that plays well shorthanded, you want to fold or raise to eliminate players. Here you are destroying the implied odds for other people and increasing the chance that your hand holds up.

That's not the whole story, but it is part of it.

You might want to post this question on the General Forum.

[GuyOnTilt]

There was a hand that was posted yesterday in which I advocated calling 2 bets cold preflop. It went something like:

I'm in the CO with K /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif. UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, MP limps, LMP raises.

The hero in this hand 3-bet, but I don't think that's the best play. Calling 2 cold here is the best of your 3 options, IMO. You'd be giving up too much to muck KQs to a LP raise after multiple limpers, and 3-betting will hurt your multiway action and further decrease the implied odds of the drawing aspect of your hand. I think calling 2 bets cold in this specific hand is the best play.

Like I said though, these cases very rarely come up, which is why the more experienced posters on this forum are advising players who still have a lot of preflop leaks to fold everything but 3-betting hands to a raise.

[MaxPower]

The general idea is that you should not be cold-calling a raise when only the raiser has entered the pot. When there are some limpers before the raiser or when someone raises and is called by 2 or 3 people, you can occasionnaly cold-call, but you still need a very good hand.

[Lost Wages]

The don't coldcall mantra is overstated as it applies to readers of this forum IMO. In loose low limit games when you are in late position and the game is passive enough that 3-bets are rare, there are plenty of opportunities to coldcall. Some examples:

1) You are on the button. 5 limp, CO raises you have 77.
2) You are in LP. UTG raises, 3 coldcallers you have JTs.

In general, if several other players are already tied to the pot and you have a hand that plays well multiway but isn't strong enough to 3-bets then coldcalling is OK.

I expect the regulars to flame me for this /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Lost Wages

[ramjam]

I think you have given a good explanation of when cold-calling can be appropriate - with excellent multi-way hands against dubious raises.

I analysed my Pokertracker database and found that I have cold called 18 times in 7,703 hands: 12 times with large suited connectors or suited aces; 3 times with pocket pairs; twice with AQo and once with AKo. At least one of the pocket pairs was a clear mistake (44? - with the others fold or raise would normally be the better options) and the AQ and AK represented weak indecision in the face of early position raises from apparently solid players.

[Dylan Wade]

I think it's misleading to say that you need a very good hand to do this. I'd say the ideal place to cold call 2 would be if you've got 3-4 limpers and then a raise right before you with little chance of a raise behind you with a good *drawing* hand like 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif or J /images/graemlins/spade.gif10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Not exactly great hands in typical circumstances, but worth playing with this kind of pot

[huzitup2]

Several weeks ago, one of the newbies asked what a "cold call was ?

His question received only a handful of reponses before the thread got burried; sadly (for him, and now it appears for ME) none of the responses gave a concrete definition of the term.

I was under the impression that a true "cold call" was where one player called 2 bets from a raisor that was the nearest ACTIVE player to his right.

By this definition your first example WOULD be a cold call.

- FWIW, I agree with you; this IS a good call in most games.

*

I also agree that #2 is a good call; honestly I'd call this one a no brainer.

But is it a cold call when three others call the raise before you act ?

I'm not particularly interested in splitting hairs; I'm willing to go along with whatever definition the masses have attached to this word.

However, there does seem to be a HUGE difference between calling 2 bets on the button or in LP when the raise came from EP, as opposed to when it came from your immediate right.

Can someone tell me what the commonly accepted definition of this term is ?

*

If both of these ARE cold calls, MAYBE we need to distinguish between them.

- Calling all hair splitters . . .

*

Best wishes,

- H

[huzitup2]

I think the flamers need to take a long look in the mirror (and at their GAMES).

I mentioned this in my first reply, but it's worth saying again.

I'm not sure you'll get rich making either of these calls, but someone is going to have to put forth a VERY persuasive argument if I am to back down from my stance that both calls are profitable.

I don't think either are even close to being bad plays.

I called #2 a no brainer; having thought about it for a few minutes I'd like to attach this label to #1 as well.

Best wishes,

- H

[Dylan Wade]

I usually look at a cold call as being where you call a raise with no initial bet to protect.

So if you're in late position and it's already raised to you, calling would be a "cold call".

However, I guess it's debatable if you've already limped in for 1 and then it gets raised and reraised. At that point I think you're just "calling 2 bets" instead of "cold calling", but I'm sure you could use the term here too.

[Homer]

Click here (http://www.planetpoker.com/archive/dictionary/vocabc.htm#16173)

-- Homer

[Nottom]

I think both these calls are fine. I also think that its important to remember the context of the "Don't ever cold-call ever!" argument. Most players cold-call raises WAY too often and it is is probably one of the most widespread leaks online. Its important for beginning players to learn not to play hands that might look playable in bad situations. It hard for a begining player to see the difference between calling with KQs in LP after a raiser and some callers and calling with AJo after a bet and a raise, so its best to just get rid of them all.

As players gain experience they will begin to see when it might be worthwhile to call a raise cold, but until they have the disipline to lay seemingly good hands down to a raise I think its best to just tell new players "Just say NO! ... to coldcalling raises"

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I expect the regulars to flame me for this .

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? You put it well.

However, you failed to state that the situations you listed are high implied odd situations, where it is correct to cold call.

Nice post,
JT

[Mike Gallo]

Usually my opponents fear me more when I cold call a raise then when I three bet.

Lost wages gave the best answer so far, however let me add a new wrinkle.

You sit on the button with 88. Three players limp to the cutoff and he raises. You think the blinds will call you do not think it will get raised back to you, you decide to cold call his raise. I see nothing wrong with that.

A more advanced version. Utg raises, you look down and see Aces, you know the button likes to reraise when he senses weakness. You decide to cold call the raise so you can either cap it after utg raises or you can reraise the button yourself.

I hardly cold call raises, however under certain situations you can justify cold calling a raise.