fives and tens

[illmatic]

I was reading through the old posts and came across a theory that was mentioned and sort of glossed over. It was that:

"Connectors containing either a 5 or a 10 are more valuable than other connectors, since straights can only be made using a 5 or a 10."

Some other users quickly dismissed this theory because other connectors can make just as many possible straights as connectors that contain a 5 or a 10.

However, I think this way of thinking about it is too simple... Yes, the number of possible straights is the same, but if you have a 5 or a 10 connector in your hand, that leaves fewer 5's and 10's out to hit the board. So, if you fit your flop for a straight draw, and other straight chasers do too, they will eventually need a 5 or 10, one which you have in your hand, reducing their odds to complete.

This is a very small benefit, but I think it does exist.

I wonder if it may be applied to the value of 55's and TT's. On the one hand, straights will have a hard time completing against you, however, if you hit your set, the straight possibility is live.

Am I way off here?

illmatic

[Nottom]

I think the advatage is right up there with prefering KK to AA because it is easier for a set of Kings to be the nuts on a King-high board than a set of Aces because the A makes more straights possible.

[drewjustdrew]

Well stated. I was thinking the same thing. If you had a 6 as a connector, and a 6 was needed to complete the straight, that is one fewer six in the deck for someone else to have. I would say all cards 5 through 10 have the same value when considering the straight possibility. Although, the 10 is involved in more nut straight possibilities than the others, since A-J with a lone ten is the nuts. There is no other single card that completes the bottom end of a straight and makes it the nuts.

[baggins]

i agree. it also kinda smells like the 'straights should beat flushes' thinking...

[crockpot]

when you are comparing the straight potential of hands like 54 and 76, the benefit of having the 5 in your hand is exactly counterbalanced by the lack of 5 in the deck.

it is easier to just not think about this at all, since the advice is obviously wrong.

as for your 55 and TT question, cloutier believes TT is a better no-limit hand than AK, because "you can still make five possible straights with it." whether or not you believe TT is better than AK, this is a prime example of why i go to 2+2 for poker books instead of cloutier.

the extra straight potential afforded by a 55 does pretty much account for all of the difference in value between 55 and 22 preflop in hold 'em, although the set-over-set possibilities do present some risk at big-bet.

[illmatic]

>as for your 55 and TT question, cloutier believes TT is a better no-limit hand than AK, because "you can still make five possible straights with it." whether or not you believe TT is better than AK, this is a prime example of why i go to 2+2 for poker books instead of cloutier.<

Starts a new discussion!... Yes, I do believe TT is a better hold em hand than AKo, especially in fishy limit hold em where raises don't thin the field much. It beats AKo head-to-head of course, but mainly, it's better against any n random hands. In big-bet, it's a toss-up, but depends on your style. You win more money with AKo, but conversely will rarely go broke with TT. Cloutier is a good book. It's not HEPFAP, but they're written from the perspective of two very different playing styles.

illmatic

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I do believe TT is a better hold em hand than AKo, especially in fishy limit hold em where raises don't thin the field much.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the low-limit online games I play in TT is basically only good when you hit your set. So many stick around that if any A, K, Q, J hits the board you're dead. A pair of Aces or Kings hit with AK will often hold up, however.

[Copernicus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I do believe TT is a better hold em hand than AKo, especially in fishy limit hold em where raises don't thin the field much.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the low-limit online games I play in TT is basically only good when you hit your set. So many stick around that if any A, K, Q, J hits the board you're dead. A pair of Aces or Kings hit with AK will often hold up, however.

[/ QUOTE ]

TT is a favorite over AK until it gets to 7 handed. While both big and small limt games can be 7 handed, betting is going to thin the crowd less in LL, so I would rather have AK in a full table LL game. TT can cost a bundle even when low cards flop 2 pair, so not only are overcards a threat but low connected cards. AK has to be played carefully too but at least it doesnt have the overcard threat when an A or K fall.

[AliasMrJones]

I may be playing TT too timidly, but it just seems so rare that TT would win with people seeming to play almost any A, K or Q and many other garbage hands.

I raise JJ, but limp with TT and hope to hit a set. If not, and the flop is all lower than T, I'll bet and see what happens. (Though I'm usually expecting a higher card to hit the board and if it does and someone else bets out in front of me, I'll fold.) Knowing that I play Party $2/4 and that 45-50% seeing the flop is the norm, should I be raising TT pre-flop?

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Knowing that I play Party $2/4 and that 45-50% seeing the flop is the norm, should I be raising TT pre-flop?


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe not from EP, but if you are first in from MP or in LP after a couple (or a whole lot) of limpers you probably shoud be.

[Louie Landale]

This should be pretty easy to demonstrate one way or the other. Play 100 million random hands and tally the results for 43, 54, 65, and 76. Also tally for 98, T9, JT, and QJ. Take note if there is any odd jumps in how well they do. If there is a small difference between the first three but a big difference between the 3rd and 4th, then having a 5 or T is "bad". Likewise a big jump between the 1st and 2nd and small differences between the last 3 means having a 5 or T is good.

Likewise tabulate the results for 44, 55, 66 and also 99, TT, and JJ.

Perhaps someone can run this test for us.

- Louie

[rockoon]

as far as connectors are concerned, I do not believe having a 5 or a T gives more weight to the hand by itself.. however for pocket pairs it is different because you now have defensive value.

If you graph the optimal (maximizing your EV) stack size versus an all-knowing big blind in no-limit hold'em for an all-in bet preflop, you will find that both pocket 5's and pocket 10's have some special properties that affects the shape of the graph.

Pair - Optimal Stack (in big blind units)
22 - 3.1
33 - 3.4
44 - 3.8
55 - 5.0
66 - 4.8
77 - 3.6
88 - 3.5
99 - 3.2
TT - 3.4
JJ - 3.0
QQ - 3.0
KK - 3.0

5's top out at having the largest optimal stack size while 10's stand out as a second peak on the curve.