Pre-flop question

[Gabe]

Let’s say you are in a 20/40 game.

A very loose player limps. He will not fold before the flop once he has limped.

A player raises on the button. You’ve seen him raise with small pairs in similar situations. You suspect that he may also raise with other weak hands but you’re not sure.

The player in the BB is very loose. He will defend his BB with almost anything for one bet. If it is two more to him, he may or may not fold 98o.

You have AJo in the SB.

[Kevin J]

I probably wouldn't get involved. If folding is wrong, it can't be by much.

[Softrock]

I can't see getting involved frankly. How do you like it if an Ace flops and you get action? Could you possibly fold your Ace? It's just too likely that your hand is dominated in my opinion.

[nykenny]

given the situation u described, there is ABSOLUTELY ONLY ONE WAY TO PLAY YOUR HAND. CALL.

Folding is a waste of the best hand most of the time.

Reraising will alomst never get heads-up or even 3 way.

And surely AJo will win more than it's fair share 1/4 here.

my $0.02 USD

Kenny

[nykenny]

softrock,

i usually like your other posts, but would you please read the whole post before you respond? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

2 loose goose and one loose raise, u would give up AJo?

Kenny

[Vehn]

Callllllllllll.

[ajizzle]

Call. Raising from the SB is never a good idea. Listen to Mike Caro's audio recordings on cardplayer.com

[Kevin J]

The poster also said he could figure on the bb coming in. AJo does not do well multi-way, especially out of position. Another reason to fold, is that even those with looser raising standards will pick up a legitimate raising hand as often as anyone else.

[stripsqueez]

i dont get that reraising will not get it 3 ways

if you call dont you encourage the somewhat loose BB to call and if say the BB has 98o, given what else you know about the hand, arent you keen for him to fold ?

the BB will presumably fold nearly all of the time to a 3 bet and call lots of the time to a single raise - thats a big fat argument for raising

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Diplomat]

I am pretty sure I would not re-raise, and I'm pretty sure I'd be giving up something against these players by folding.

I say call.

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont get that reraising will not get it 3 ways

[/ QUOTE ]

From the player description, there is a very good chance that a raise will not make this player fold most hands.

[ QUOTE ]
if you call dont you encourage the somewhat loose BB to call and if say the BB has 98o, given what else you know about the hand, arent you keen for him to fold ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, if he has 89o, you should not mind his call. Again considering the players, you need to make a hand to win the pot. Pages 175-6 of Hold'em for Advanced players discusses this idea. The example is AQ, against 78o; the idea is that you need to hit an ace or queen to win, but the only way 78o is going to hurt you is if they catch -two- out of his cards (or better) while you also catch an ace or queen.

-Diplomat

[PokerPrince]

Given the circumstances, this is a call.

PokerPrince

[Tommy Angelo]

I'm on to a new way of looking at posts like this one.

Let's do it backwards. The situation is as described in the initial post. Our job is to determine exactly which hand in the small blind is closest to break-even, closest to making it so it doesn't matter what we do.

I suspect that for this situation, if AJ is not that hand, it is close.

And that's what we should expect to see in posts written by people who have a lingering doubt about a particular situation picked from an entire session. It's the close decisions that seem most troubling, when actually, the close decisions are the least significant to our performance. I like this.

To the hand at hand, I would almost never call. Dead money is my money. Blast the big-blind out. Take charge. Maybe get someone else out on the flop with a bet, raise or reraise. Dead money. Then we chop it up. I take this hand, you take the next one.

If that felt like too much trouble to dive into at the time, I'd muck preflop. It doesn't matter to me that the raiser might not have much. Being out of position is bad. Being out of position without the advantage of being able to get a good read by having been aggressive early, that's way bad, for me at least. I think calling is the worst of the three choices.


Tommy

[Philuva]

So why not raise and have the BB pay 2 more bets with his 89o?

Both you and NYKenny seem to think you probably have the best hand and will win more than 1/4 if the BB calls and I would assume more than 1/3 of the time if he doesn't. Seems like raising is the best option to me.

[Gabe]

I folded, mainly because I didn’t think I should raise, and also because I was not confident that my reads on the other players were exactly as I described them in the post.

However, if the texture of the game was as I described it, I do not think it was close. The fact that you say it was, confirms this.

The point I’m trying to get to I guess is; if I can’t reraise with a hand like this I don’t want to play it. I can’t help but think I’m losing money sometimes.

I want to be the one in control. In a typical or loose passive game, it’s not hard to usually be the one in control in the hands I play, and it feels good. However, I often find my self in games where I’m not the one controlling the action.

Lets say I’m in a game where there are a couple of players who will play say 85% of their hands and 75% of them for a raise or two. There are also one or two players, who are more than just a little too loose and a little too aggressive but not maniacs. They are raising most pairs, frequently raising any two big, and often suited connectors. Let’s also assume that all of these players play much better post flop than they do pre flop. (Believe me games like this are not rare where I play.)

In game like this should I be just calling raises with AQo? KQo?

I’m starting to think maybe I should. I won’t like it. I’ll feel like a sucker. But maybe I should.

[Diplomat]

If I feel I have to hit my hand to win, I try to get in as cheaply as possible.

-Diplomat

[Philuva]

What if you had AKo or AQo in this situation? Would you still just call and not raise?

[Softrock]

Yes I did read the post - don't think the issue is that so much as a difference of opinion here. I would frankly much rather be coming in with 89s or something like that where it is multi-way with loose players. Less likely to be dominated. AJ is just a hand that too easily gets you in trouble in these situations. Plus, in my opinion, against the sorts of players described that +EV will come primarily from generally playing superior starting hands than your opponents. If you lower your starting hand requirements you are negating much of the advantage you have against such players.

Thanks for the response - and please don't ever hesitate to flat out disagree or say you think I'm wrong or whatever. The reason I read and post here is to try to improve - if someone sees things differently than I do then I want to rethink and consider that perspective. The only time I'd take offense is if you made it personal (which I know you wouldn't do).

[adios]

Seems like you have a hard time against players who use their positional advantage well. I think that's to be expected. Tommy's post is a good I think. FWIW I'd tighten up some against these players and be very aggressive when I play.

[Diplomat]

Good point. AQ, probably just call. AK I'd be tempted to re-raise, and probably fold to much resistance on the flop or turn if I missed. When I think about hands like this, I wonder if I am weak-tight.

-Diplomat

[Mark Heide]

Gabe,

I fold this hand. It appears that you are going to have a raised pot preflop with three others besides yourself. AJ unsuited only can play if you believe you can narrow the field preflop. I doubt it with a bunch of loosies.

Good Luck

Mark