Advanced Play or Not ?

Paradise: $0.50/$1.00 - 8dKd on the button.


We are 5 player's to see the Flop in an unraised pot (a Limper (4 off the button), a Poster in the CutOff, me and the blinds ):


[ 5h 8h Ks ]


SB:Check - BB:Bet - Limper:Call - Poster:Fold - I:Raise - SB:Fold - BB:Call - Limper:Call.


3 player's see the Turn:


[ 5h 8h Ks ] [ 3h ]


BB:Bet - Limper:Call - I:Raise - BB:Call - Limper:Call.


3 player's see the River:


[ 5h 8h Ks 3h ] [ 2d ]


BB:Check - Limper:Check - I:Check.


SUMMARY: Pot: $11.00 - Rake: $0.50


BB bet $3.50, collected $11.00, net +$7.50 [ KhJh ] (flush)


Limper lost $3.50 [ 4s7d ] (high card)


I lost $3.50 [ 8dKd ] (two pair)


Q1: How do you like my Turn-Raise ? Was it an Advanced Play or

Not ?


Q2: How would you have played if it was cheked to you on the

Turn ?


Q3: How do you like the play of BB ?


Q4: What would you write in your notebook about the Limper ?


Any comments appreciated !

i think you were lucky the bb didnt raise back on 4th street and bet you at the river and cost you 2 more bets. you paid the same as if you made crying calls. with that many callers you have to expect a flush with the lead betting out. but it was just a hand you maybe got stuck in and had to go thru with.

After you raised the flop, and the BB bet into you, you should have thought "flush" and made crying calls to the end. Your turn raise would have cost you two more bets against many opponents who would have reraised, then bet the river.


Obviously the limper's play was foolish. Write "fish" in notebook.


If checked to on the turn, obviously bet.


BB wimped out by not reraising the turn, or at least betting the river. He assumed you had the nuts.

I am intrigued you would think this way, since this play is pretty much straight out of HPFAP21 (p. 141). The reasoning is that a typical player with a smaller flush will usually just call and then check the river (as this player does), allowing you to pick up a free bet when you improve or just check along otherwise. Even the nut flush will sometimes (incorrectly) not raise, figuring they can check raise the river.


Is there a reason you think the concept from HPFAP21 doesn't apply in this case? Do you think this concept is out of date, and that typical players would now bet a small flush on the river if a blank comes?

Q1: Don't like the turn raise, you reduced your odds and nobody is folding. An advanced play would be betting a flush draw with overcards or a flush and straight draw, this is because you would have a lot of outs with these types of hands.


Q2:Check and hope to make my full house for free.


Q3:Fine.


Q4:Make sure you sit down with this guy because he likes to play.


If you continue to play like this you will lose all your money. You were not reraised on the flop, so you should consider it very likely that someone is drawing. Many players lose alot of money with two pair because they get excited about it and forget what's out there against them.


On the turn the pot was offering you odds of only 7.5-to-1 and you only had four outs to make your hand better (assuming you don't count the king in your opponents hand it's even worse). You need odds of 10.5-to-1 to call his bet on the turn with a four outer. Essentially, you reduced your odds to see the river, you should have folded on the turn.

'... since this play is pretty much straight out of HPFAP21 (p. 141). The reasoning is ...'


Excactly my point ! I have an older version of HPFAP where the play is recommended on page 100.


Thanks !


Big Q: Is HPFAP Right or Wromg ?

I agree with Dave. When you raise the turn with the 3rd heart you will get reraised most of the time when they have the flush. but its not garrunteed he has a flush. but he may have a heart with a king and big kicker if he doesn't. which either your beat or he's not that big a dog going to the river. so i would call turn and river and hope my hand is good.

HPFAP is right depending on the circumstances. For two pair you need a much bigger pot, and with a set it could be more often since you have 10 outs to make your full house on the river.


I just reread this page from HPFAP again, and I think you need to be very careful that you make sure you are getting the right price from the pot to make this play.

Youre advocating folding on the turn here??? I think the odds to improve and the chance you have the best hand dictate at least a call.


If you start folding on the turn often when a scare hits the

semibluffs will begin and you will be in big trouble.


BTW the bettor could easily have a pair w/an Ah kicker. Now folding would be a big mistake.

In this situation you are not getting correct odds to call to improve, so you need to decide whether your hand is good enough to win "as-is."


If it was a heads up pot with the bettor I could see calling or even raising, and that decision would be a judgement on how I thought the bettor played. There are two things that occurred in this hand that would lead me to fold on the turn. First consider the bettors play. He bet on the flop, called the raise, and bet out on the turn. If this player was a maniac or very agressive I could call him because I would have some doubts.


Furthermore, it is more likely he has a flush, because there are two players left behind him to act. The player in between did call on the flop the raise and call on the turn. If the bettor didn't have the flush, he probably would not bet the turn with two players left to act in most cases.

I think the price from the pot is mostly irrelevant to this play. Why? Because you are expecting to put in 2 more bets with your top 2 pair anyway if you just call both the turn and river.


The factor really affecting whether to make this play is what you think the chances are that your turn raise will get your opponents to turn passive. If it works (your opponents call and check it down after your turn raise), you still lose the exact same 2 bets when you don't improve, but gain an extra bet when you do improve.


It is only when you weren't planning to call the river bet if you didn't improve, and/or your opponents don't turn passive that this play costs you money. Neither of these factors is particularly affected by the price offered to you by the pot, except insofar as a bigger pot somewhat increases both the chances that you will call on the end without improving and the chances that someone will play more aggressively than normal out of potlust.

What is Hpfap? Please email me at djcm@austin.rr.com


Thanks,


Daniel J.

HPFAP is David Sklansky's and Mason Malmuth's book Hold Em Poker For Advanced Players.