How important is math?

Hi All.


I was wondering, if you want to be a good poker player. Let's say that you want to make a good living playing 10-20 $ hold'em or whatever game. How important is math on that level??

Why Im asking is because I'm not that good on math, but I'm not bad either. I have no problem calculating the pot odd, or maybe calculate what my odds are of hitting my flush hand. I belive my strong sides are good tells and hand reading. Can my math problem become a problem later on when I move up??


Thanks,

Daniel

As long as you are playing holdem, math is not especially important. With a clarifier. The odds of the basic draws are easy to remember in holdem, and they don't change like they do in stud. If you know you basic drawing odds, and pay attention to pot odds, knowledge of advanced calculations is not needed.


If you play stud, you don't necessarily need advanced math, but you had better pay attention, and have some method of being able to estimate your chances of drawing out vs. pot odds.


In any game, if you don't pay attention to pot odds vs. drawing odds, you can't win.


In all games, you must also factor in implied odds and reverse implied odds when making your decisions.


Dave in Cali

as long as you have a general idea in holdem your fine. know how many cards you have to hit and is it worth a call.

You need to be able to FOLLOW the math calculations found in the 2+2 books and often on this forum since understanding this math allows you to understand and accept the principles these calculations support: if you can see how a 25% winning/10% bluffing hand is a clear semi-bluffing hand then you get a real good idea on how to apply semi-bluffing to the current hand. Being able to creatively apply these principles is a separate matter and far less important.


There MAY be 4 or 5 top players who can do clever calculations in their heads at the table. The rest of us, and I mean ALL the rest of us generally do quick calcu-guesses. Not only is that a reality for us, its also quite suitable since while the BASIC odds are important (pot vrs hand odds) the rest of it usually has so much subjective stuff stuck to it (like how many callers can you expect) that the margin of error far exceeds any detailed calculation differences: no sense measuring with a micro-meter if you are going to cut it with an axe.


Having said that, it is usually a good idea to work out an interesting hand or two at home after a session.


- Louie

In reading the poker books, I find that now one has listed the pot odds, Vs the hand odds. Sklansky talks about them, and talks about implied, vs effective, ect, But none of the books talks about how one should look and use these odds to calculte their chances and whether to fold or continue. While this is a grey area, if there is some direct information on this please direct me to it.


Thanks


Daniel J.

Perhaps this example helps:


Lets say you have a nut gut-shot 11:1 against. It costs one bet to call on the flop and there is 6sb in the pot right now. If you call you can expect to be getting 6:1 to call again on the turn which isn't anywhere near enough to draw to the gut shot. You figure if you make the nut straight on the turn you can recoupe 4sb counting the times you make it and lose, and also counts the times you snag a pair and win. Thus your gut shot is worth 10sb but that's not enough to overcome the 11:1 odds.


But wait!! you also have a 3-flush. You need to calculate the additional scenarios where you make a 4-flush on the turn. In this case you will be "forced" to invest another bet drawing to your 12 outs. Thus, the cost of drawing for your 3-flush is MORE than the 1sb it costs now, since its value is based on making another call some of the time. This calculation gets a little difficult. When I did it and backed it up to the flop decision, I concluded that a 3-flush was worth, all in all, about 1 additional "out" (i.e. a gut-shot (4-outs) and 3-flush was worth the same as a 5-out hand).


So your hand is worth 43:4 or 10.75:1 its worth 42:5 or 8.4:1 against; which is plenty enough to draw.


- Louie

Math is to poker as flour is to bread. Essential, but not what makes it good.

Daniel, from what you say the math part will be OK for you...but on the subject of numbers, see my post to your other question