Taking conrol and losing position?

This post is a follow up on the previous thread about defending from the SB against a button's open raise. My general approach to the situation is as follows:


3-bet almost all hands that I'm going to play and then bet basically any flop that comes (assuming that BB folds and button calls, which is the usual sequence of events). I think that that approach is pretty common, but as I was sleeping in class today I realized why I feel so uncomfortable doing it.


Since my bet on the flop is an auto-bet, it gives the button "last action" on the flop. In contrast, if I just call preflop, the button's action on the flop becomes pretty close to auto-bet (far more so if BB folds), which gives me effectively "last action" on the flop. It is in this sense that taking initiative by 3-betting preflop makes me more "out of position" on the flop.


What do you all think about this?


-Dan

Yes, auto-playing tends to disrupt the normal notion of position.


But back to this form of betting. I think you'd be better off from the BB of NEVER 3-betting and then usually check-raising the flop. The same amount of money goes in but its a lot more believable than 3-betting and then auto-betting.


Your choice of strategy should be based on when the opponent will retake the initiative only with a solid hand. Auto-betting loses a lot of ground when the opponent may raise very weakly.


- Louie

An advantage of the auto-bet is that you're impossible to read. Tommy would bet blind here. I'm not sure if this makes up for the disadvantage you point out.


I find that players who are one-on-one are, paradoxically, less likely to call an auto-bet on the flop when you've 3-bet than when you've 2-bet preflop.


In the small blind, does one prefer to be head-up having 3-bet with QJ or against 2 players having merely called the button's raise? I find playing QJ from the small blind distasteful to begin with, so I prefer to invest as little as possible. So I'm probably the wrong one to be responding here.

Dan,


"Since my bet on the flop is an auto-bet, it gives the button "last action" on the flop. In contrast, if I just call preflop, the button's action on the flop becomes pretty close to auto-bet (far more so if BB folds), which gives me effectively "last action" on the flop. It is in this sense that taking initiative by 3-betting preflop makes me more "out of position" on the flop.


What do you all think about this?"


I think you're thinking about the right things.


The forfeit of last action is balanced by what happens in the common case when both players miss the flop (and turn, if seen), in which case the pot goes to the last aggressor before the flop.


And then there's the reading thing. Calling preflop and checking to the raiser puts him in the best spot to know where he stands, whereas reraising preflop and betting out puts him in the guessing seat.


Tommy

The main reason for three-betting with many of the hands that you play out of the small blind against a button raise (when no one else is in) is defensive. That is you prefer to get the big blind out and play heads-up.


Now that you have successfully done this it makes sense to almost always auto-bet the flop. That's because if your opponent doesn't flop anything, which will be the case the majority of the time, it will be very difficult for him to call. This is especially true if you catch him with a weak raising hand.


I do agree that what you describe is a weakness of this play. However, given that there are seven bets now in the pot your opponent doesn't have to fold to frequently for your bet to be correct, and sometimes he may fold a hand that is better than yours.

yes the 3 bet preflop now makes you out of position and its an auto bet. but as andy said, it makes you impossible to read.most of the time that you can 3 bet preflop you will have the best hand so you want to clear out the big blind and play against the weaker hand. if you both miss you will win most of the time. he will not try to play you off that many hands because he knows you can have a big hand here. he will probably raise with draws, but the times you have a big pair you can punish him for this. and you forget by just calling you will bring the big blind in much more often. i think the only time you don't mind bringing in the big blind is if he is a very bad player where you will profit more with him in the hands because he will make more mistakes. and i agree with andy that QJoff is not good enough to 3 bet from the sb. the only exceptions would be if the raiser is a very bad or weak player, then i will tangle with him and 3 bet with this hand. because i want him all to myself.