Playing with "The Rock"

[Ed Miller]

So a 2+2 lurker (dunno if you post, Chris) introduced this into our 15-30 game at the Bellagio last night. He took 6 chips, tied them up with a rubber band, and used them as a live straddle. A friend of mine says that the brick of chips is called "The Rock" so I'm gonna go with that. The rule was, if you win the pot with the rock in it, then next time you are UTG, you must use the rock as a live straddle.

So it was fantastic for the game. In the straddle pots, despite the fact that the straddle money came with "conditions", there was silly preflop action... six or seven ways for three bets typically. There were some people who definitely seemed to be fighting over it... one guy 3-bet every straddled pot, IIRC.

In any event, I'm trying to decide how the rock affects preflop strategy. It's different from a normal straddle since you are obligated to use the straddle money to straddle next time it is your turn. So in that respect, winning it is like winning a kill pot... (in fact, the whole thing behaves much like a kill in some ways).

Anyway, I'm going to think about this some more, but I just wanted to let anyone who hasn't heard of this know about it.

[Gildersneeze]

It's pretty neat, and it seems like it would add a lot of fun at a loose and laughing table, but "The Rock" at a table full of rocks would probably generate no laughs whatsoever.

Sometimes you just run up against some stodgy players and I wonder how well things would go over then. Still, I suppose it doesn't hurt to ask if it's okay.

[rharless]

I was wondering why you hadn't posted in awhile. You've made it to Vegas, I see. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Did the table loosen up also on the non-rock hands? I would assume so, just curious.

I do not know the answer to your question, so sorry for wasting reply real-estate in that regard. /images/graemlins/smile.gif My gut feel would be play only Axs, most royal cards, and most pairs -- because I don't really know the correct way to adapt to this game and those are easy-to-play, fallback hands. Some high-card suited hands that I would typically fold out of concern for domination after a 3-bet would now seem to be playable hands (e.g. KJs).

It does seem to me the fact that the Rock is not really part of the pot is minor. What you are describing is already 9-10BB preflop, plus of course the postflop action. These pots must be 15-20BB easily. The loss of one BB out of your final pot seems small relative to this ending pot. (Plus, it's not like you lose the full 1BB on average, in much the same way that you don't lose a full small bet in the BB.)

On the flop, I'd also be often calling 1SB with marginal draws.

[FeliciaLee]

I believe John Feeney wrote about this kind of forced blind bet in a California game.

It was along the lines of a kill, but it was "passed around" to the winner of each pot, like you played the straddle "rock."

Sounds very interesting.

[Mike Gallo]

MajorKong,

Mason posted about a game he playind at Harvey's in Lake Tahoe where they played a game like this.

[Louie Landale]

Yes, its a rock. The there is a small blind, a big blind, and a rock in the pot. It costs 2sb to call, 3sb to raise and one player gets to play in this pot real cheap. Sounds like you should play a little tighter in this game. Nope. A lot tighter.

The problem is that the "rock" actually DOES have some residual value. In a passive game the straddle will often get to see the 2-bet flop for nothing. So winning the staddle pot IS worth something beyond the blinds, although its by no means worth the 2sb straddle it appears to be worth.

Yes, this is similar to the "Kill" or "sucker ..err.. winner leave it in" games.

- Louie

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Damn. When I read the title, I thought you sat in a game with Dwayne Johnson /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[MaxPower]

There is something about this in one of the Two Plus Two books, but I can't remember which one.

[leon]

Mason discusses a similar, but NOT IDENTICAL situation in Poker Essays II. In fact he even called it the "rock game" b/c the 6 chips may as well be a rock, for all the value they add to your stack. The game he was referring to was 30/60, where the winner of the previous pot posted the 30$ BB rather than 2 to the left of the dealer as is standard elsewhere. This served to create only 1 real blind (and a small one at that, 15$) since you automatically gave up the 30$ won on the next hand. In fact by the rules of the the 30$ could never, and would never, leave the table.

So what are the implications of only one small blind? Super tight play is demanded, and hands that need high implied odds were crushed b/c there usually wasn't enough in the pot to justify the long odds. Loose play was punished even more than normal.

In the game you describe, the structure is similar but not the same. It sounds like a kill game as other posters have pointed out, ie there is essentially a blind raise and double stakes given that the opening bet is 30, not 15$. Again, the 30$ won can never be part of your stack, so you are playing a 30/60 game in essence with half the normal blind money to win.

Adjustment- again, play tighter. Loose play is punished more than normal. Ignore the 30$ straddle- pretend you're playing a 30/60 game with half the value of the blinds. Big cards should have a premium in this game. I'd avoid suited connectors and other high implied odds type hands.

Lastly, I'd probably steal more liberally in the back, but I'd do it more with high cards than something like 67 sooted. It costs more for the blinds to defend, so if you have a steal opportunity it's more likely to be successful. Conversely, you are risking more to win comparable blinds than in a normal 15 game.

Hope that helped.

Leon

[GuyOnTilt]

I find this concept very interesting...I think for tight/aggressive players it would be profitable to introduce it into loose games. I'm going to try it next time I get a chance to go play live.

Hope Vegas is treating you well! Seattle will miss you.

[bdypdx]

I was wondering how it ends?

If player A has "the rock" and decides to leave does that person just keep it? Or do they toss it into the pot and get an equal # of chips?

Sounds interesting though.

bdy

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
I was wondering how it ends?

If player A has "the rock" and decides to leave does that person just keep it? Or do they toss it into the pot and get an equal # of chips?

[/ QUOTE ]
I was wondering this too. If you win the rock and then decide to leave, would that be considered unsportsmanlike?

[slavic]

The rock is simply a kill pot button with a free play for the free blind. So I think taking off with the "Rock" would just be bad form.

[daryn]

but someone has to leave with it correct? else it will stay on the table forever. when the table breaks up or something do they just toss it to the dealer as a tip?

[Ed Miller]

The game broke and I had the rock. Mwhahahaha...

[slavic]

So you have to bring the rock next time?