Blind steal and resteal aftermath

The button opens for a raise. His raising standards are pretty normal, say any pair, any ace, a decent king. two cards above a ten, etc.


I three bet from the SB with QJo and the BB folds, button calls.


The flop comes rags, say 8 high. I bet and the button calls.


The turn is another blank. I think that the button is pretty tenactious and will call to the river with any ace or pair but will fold without one of those (maybe on the turn, maybe on the river). What is my best approach from this point on? (Of course, if you disagree with the line of play prior to the turn, please feel free to discuss that as well).

I think it may be a matter of style, but for me, I would have folded pre-flop, especially against a tenacious player. I'm out of position with a mediocre hand. By 3-betting I'm making it more attractive for my opponent to be tenacious. Since I 3 bet, he know the rags must have missed me too. I don't think I can make this a profitable situation.

Andy,


Your point is well taken. Let me ask to reconsider the preflop decision from the following perspective:


Assumption: The "clumping effect" is sufficiently small that it can be ignored.


The button plays perfectly, i.e. he raises with optimal frequency. There is some proportion of hands with which you must defend your SB. I think that we probably agree roughly on the relative value of hands in this context. Thus, the only argument is over what percentage of hands should be used to defend the SB against the button's raise (assume a 1:2 blind struncture). I contest that a range of hands not including QJo is too small a percentage of hands and that the button can take advantage of you by raising more (and getting more EV from his position that he should be able to). This is of course just assertion, but I think that I am correct. I'm not sure how long you have been involved in this forum, but there is a long ago archived post about defending the SB against a steal raise with 98s that was started by Sklansky; you might be interested in that thread.


I am now going to start a new post that suggests that the general notion that almost all hands playable in this situation should be 3-bet may be wrong. I hope that you read it and choose to comment.


-Dan

there is more than just the button to consider here

Your points are well taken. Against an "average" player on the button, QJ is borderline playable (for me) in the small blind. I'd probably play if I have to call 1-1/3 bets and fold if I have to call 1-1/2 bets.


I don't remember the 98s thread. I do remember posting about a hand in which I called a raise from a late position raiser (I believe it was the cut-off, but it could have been the button) with QJ from the big blind and David told me my call was marginal. The raiser in this case was a tough and tricky player.


I'm starting to be more Angeloic in my old age. I play better with position and less well without. I say this in full recognition of your comments, plus Mason's that this situation approximates short-handed play and thus you must call with a higher percentage of hands than might appear correct at first glance.


As to whether to call or reraise, I'll post under your new threat addressing this issue.

i disagree with you. out of the examples of hands that you say your opponent would raise with. how many can you beat? the only that you hands you can beat are J10,Q10. everything else is better than yours and he has position on you. and he is a tenacious and tricky player. your not giving anyhting up throwing this away. your giving it away if you call or raise. i named 2 hands you can beat. look how many beat you. granted some of the hands that are better than yours you will still beat when he mises and you bet. but not enough imo. plus if he has your cards tied up with a better kicker, now you stand to lose multi bets. no reason to get involved. muck it!

Even though your QJo is likely beat preflop, what really matters is how often the button will fold to your flop bet when he whiffs. Obviously, the more likely your opponent is to fold when the flop misses him after you make it 3 bets before the flop, the more hands you should reraise him preflop with. If he is likely to make your play difficult by sometimes raising your flop bet with overcards, small pairs, and draws, then you should only 3 bet him preflop with your better hands.


I'm not saying reraise him with anything but junk, just reraise him with maybe your best 25-30% of hands if he plays weak postflop, rather than your best 10-15% of hands if he will often outplay you posflop using his position. QJo is likely one of the hands which fits in the top 25%, but not the top 15%. So, I'm not saying I disagree with you since I normally wouldn't reraise the button raiser preflop with QJo either, but knowing the button raiser is weak postflop can increase the value of your hand a great deal in this situation.