Good flop I think. PLO

[rtucker5]

I don't play alot of pot limit omaha, but I stepped into a $50 max buy in table last night on Party. I had about $35 left when the following hand came up. The player involved had me covered. Blinds .50/1. I limped in MP after a couple limpers with Kc10cJ 8. The button raised it to $2 and everyone called. I think 6 of us saw the flop. The flop was Q 9 7 rainbow with 1 club. Checked to me and I bet $10. The button raised to $20. Everyone folded and I went all in with my super wrap and backdoor flush draw. What do you think? I think I had no choice with the stacks so short. How would you play this hand if the stacks were much deeper?

[James282]

Well, the following cards give you the nuts:

3 Kings
3 jacks
3 tens
3 8s
4 6s

16 clean outs.

But, you can put him pretty squarely on a set(if he was a passive player---most of these tables, i have found, don't have people capable of making bluffs like this) and probably the top set, of QQ, with that sort of pot bet. Party players sometimes do this with 2 pair, but gosh, that would be stupid since two pair almost always gets nailed in PLO, and you haven't shown signs that you will fold to a simple raise! Anyway, you know you aren't going to make him fold right here for 15 more dollars. I would probably call, because the turn could provide very useful information. If the turn pairs the board with the second of a suit that isn't clubs, you could fold pretty safely. If the board merely pairs, you could consider folding based on how this player has played in the past. If the board gives you the straight, you can easily call his bet(that he will definitely throw out with a set, since you only called him). If the board gives you a club that doesn't make your straight you can press it...

The only REALLY troubling cards here are ones that pair the board(3 queens, 3 9s, 3 7s). Semi-troubling cards are those that give your opponents possible flush draws to pop your straight. Anyway, I think that you should call here. Wait for the turn! You will know so much more about the hand by then, and you can get away from it if you are against a passive player who would only make this play with a set.

If the stacks were deeper, I would definitely just call.
-James

[Guy McSucker]

This is a good flop to get it all-in with, for sure. Your hand is only just behind most well-coordinated hands containing QQ and only 2-1 behind QQJT which is the nastiest holding (for you) that your enemy could have I think. If he has less than trips you are a favourite with two cards to come.

With deeper money, hmmm. The fact that you are out of position makes me want to try to get the money in now rather than playing guessing games later. If you can't get it all-in now, you will have to call a pot sized bet on the turn unless the board pairs. If the board does pair on the turn, you check and he bets, I think you need to fold despite the fact that you might still be drawing live.

With position you could see his reaction to the board pairing and perhaps bluff him off his hand if he checks.

I think this situation calls for shovelling the money in as fast as you can however deep it is, to be honest. If it's really deep there might be some poker to be played on future streets, but mostly not: it's all going in.

On the other hand, against a bad opponent who will pay you off when you hit and won't bet when the board pairs unless he has a house, there's something to be said for taking it more easily, hitting your hand first and then betting. There was a good thread on a hand along these lines a few months ago; I hope someone can remember the thread title or the original poster, because I can't.

Guy.

[Zag]

16 outs to the nuts, plus some back-door possibility. Hoo-wah!

The only thing I might have done differently would be to check-raise the button, depending, first, on how confidant I am the he will bet and, second, where the calling stations are. If the calling stations are after me and before him, I will bet out. If they are before me, I would check-raise. The idea is to get the calling stations to call only one bet before they are faced with another.

Note that there are a lot of hands that you are behind, here. You are behind anything with a set, though not far behind the weaker ones. However, in any combination that includes another caller, you are well ahead of 33%. In fact, if there are two different people with sets, you are leading! (because they are holding each other's redraws). So you would like to do whatever will keep more than just the original raiser in.

[Zag]

You guys are quick. I saw only the original post when I started my reply. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I wanted to mention, James, that I used to count outs the way you have above, but from Ciaffone's book I have changed to the way he does it, and I find it faster. He does it this way:

Any 6, 8, T, J, or K, gives me the nuts. That is 20 cards minus the 4 that I am holding, for 16 clean outs. I find it easier than trying to keep track of which of them are 3 and which are 4 while trying to add at the same time.

But maybe you're smarter than I am, and don't have trouble with this, in which case please ignore this note. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[rtucker5]

Thank you all for responding. I agree I probably should have gone for a checkraise here. If the button doesn't bet and it gets checked through, it's not bad for me. I get to make my hand before putting more money in. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

As it turned out, he did have the QQ. His other cards were a 7 and a 4. He was holding one of his FH cards. The turn was a 2 and the river was an 8 giving me the nuts. I ran the hand at twodimes and I was a slight underdog, 54% to 46%. This game is crazy. He flopped the nuts and was barely ahead.

[bugstud]

you want to see something really weird? make a second card on the flop a club.

[crockpot]

you're right, you did have virtually no choice with such shallow money.

as for how to play the hand if the money is deep, i like to leave about two thrusts (pot-sized bets on the next two streets) in my stack after the flop betting is completed. though your hand is an underdog to his, it has playing advantages: he will certainly call at least on the turn even if you hit, while you can get away from your hand if he hits on the turn or redraws on you at the river; plus he may get inspired and call the river even if you have hit the straight, especially if you hit it with a card like a 6.

if you hit the straight on the river and he has bet the turn, it is even more likely that you will get paid off.

what i'd really like to know is whether it is a better strategy to come out betting the pot on the river or check and hope he makes a huge bet himself. i really don't have enough experience to answer this one, but hopefully some of the experts here can.

[James282]

A lot of it is player dependent. If a King hits, you should almost definitely bet since a smart player will not not only fear the straight, but a higher set..and it is likely that he will check behind you and take a free card. If a ten or a jack hits, you should almost definitely bet as well, since the 10 completes a three-high straight(9,10,Q) and the three-low straight (10, 9, 7), and the jack does the same. If a 6 hits, I would check and try for a check-raise. Again, this is against thinking opponents, If anything less than a king comes, your opponent might just bet his top set because he might not even be thinking about the straight, ESPECIALLY since most of the players that play Omaha online are not experienced with it, and don't realize that top set is a very vulnerable and often times losing hand.
-James

[rtucker5]

I can tell by your response you are a very knowledgeable PLO player. I have a question for you. How would you play top set in this particular case? Assume the stacks are fairly deep. Lets say the turn card comes a 10 making a couple straights possible and it's checked to you. Do you pot it? Do you make a smaller bet? It's a spot I have found myself in a couple times and never know how to play it.

[JonCooke]

The interaction of big draw v made hand is very interesting. The correct strategies depend on what the players are doing.

If your opponent may have bet a hand he'll fold to a raise, then your first duty is to raise the flop - you may take it without having to make it.

If your opponent is VERY tight on the flop, such that he wouldn't lead without top set, then you want to manage the money. Hot & cold, a draw is favourite over top set if it has at least 18 cards to hit. If you can manage the size of the pot, so that your opponent has a marginal decision to call all in when a scare card comes on the turn, hoping for a pair up, or that he is good, you can be making money from the made hand with 15 outs. Leave about .6 x the pot in play for the turn.

If the flop is highly connected, with many potential scare cards, position is king. Out of position, you may as well get the hand all in v a tricky player. Otherwise you may fold to a pair up when he was also drawing. With position, leave money in play and you have the opportuinity to use the scare cards to test your opponent when one hits.

[JonCooke]

I used to play like that, until I learned better.
Whne the money is deep, you do not want to be shovelling masses in with a coin flip or with a small dog.

Much better edges are available, especially if your opponent is prepared to call a pot sized bet on the turn with a set, hoping for a pair up after you've made the nuts.

[tewall]

I think you're best strategy would be to bet the maximum your opponent will call, or maybe just betting the pot is better (comment below). There's not much reason for him to bet. Either you made your hand, or you didn't. If you didn't, you'll just fold if he bets, and if you did, you'll check/raise him, so what's in it for him if he bets?

The reason betting the pot may be better than betting a smaller amount that would more likely be called is for the sake of future hands where you could bluff at making a hand that you didn't.

[Guy McSucker]

You're right of course. I actually can't believe I wrote that "it's all going in" line. Apologies for misinformation. What a good job I wasn't playing poker that day.

At least I did manage to say that if he'll call a bet from us when we hit, we want to have money left to bet later.

Jon, in your discussion you mention having 0.6 of the pot to bet on the turn. Can you elaborate a little? I guess you are talking about betting not only our hits but also other cards which mean top set is no longer the nuts. Is that right?

Note to others, in case they're not familiar with Jon Cooke: this man really knows what he is talking about!

Guy.

[JonCooke]

More that he is scared that we might.
A good player will fold top set to a pot bet on the turn when the scare card comes. He is not getting the price he needs to call.

In theory, if he could see your hand, he would need odds of just better than 3:1 to call. In practise, because you might be bluffing, he'll call a bet of slightly more than half the pot on the turn.

If the board pairs you can fold, saving you money over being all in. Overall, the good fold you can make means that playing the hand this way gives you an advantage over going all in on the flop.

[Guy McSucker]

Thanks for the clarification. I like this ploy.

Do you extend this somewhat to the situation where there is more money left to bet after the turn? For example, if I am pretty sure I am against a set, does it make sense to bet something like 70% of the pot on the turn when I hit, hoping that my opponent will reason that the combination of better than usual odds, the chance I am bluffing, and the chance to pick up some more money on the river when the board pairs, is enough to call?

Of course the danger here is that I end up calling his own smallish bet on the river when it pairs, using similar reasoning myself...

What do you think?

Guy.

[JonCooke]

If you know where you are you could try this.
Another occasional tactic against good players is to sometimes lay them a price to call if you have some of their outs blocked.