HUGE 15/30 pot. What does he have and did I over play it?

[OrangeHeat]

Online 15/30 the site has just recovered from a massive crash and there are four of us at the table. Players are unknown as we have only played a few hands.

Im on the button and get two black kings. UTG calls, cutoff calls I raise, small blind reraises, UTG and cutoff call 2 cold, and I cap it up. Yummy - Four to the flop four 4 sb's.

Flop is Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Sb bets out, UTG and cutoff call. I raise and everyone calls. Four to the turn pot is at 12BB.

Turn is the 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Sb checks, the other two check to me, I bet, sb checkraises, utg folds, cutoff calls two cold again, I threebet, and small blind CAPS. Now cutoff folds. Pot is at 22 BB.

Question: I am pretty aggressive with my overpairs in general and threebet here - does any one just call?

River is 2/images/graemlins/club.gif. Board is now Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif and the pot is now 24BB. Sb bets out and I just call after the turn cap. Question: Does anyone raise here?

1. Was I overaggressive on the turn?
2. What did my opponent have?
3. Should I have raised on the river?

Interesting Results and some reasoning to follow.

Orange

[rtucker5]

You showed an awful lot of strength and he is still raising. I don't think you can raise the river and you can't fold. I know these games can get pretty aggressive and I wouldn't be surprised if he had AQ, but I think you are probably beat. I might have 3 bet the turn, I might have just called him down. I tend to get weak tight with overpairs when my opponent shows this much strength on the turn. I hope it was AQ.

[James282]

Three betting the turn looks like a mistake, unless SB would make this play with AdKd. The only(and this is remote) made hand that you have beat is AQ. Cutoff looks to be drawing diamonds, although you didnt tell us if he folded the river or not. Since you are calling the results "interesting" I imagine that you had him beat or something, but it sure looks like QQ, KK, or AA from here. Possibly 88 if he wanted to isolate you. He could also be "firing the last barrel" at the end since he knows he wont win un-improved.
-James
-James

[OrangeHeat]

Hi James,

Cutoff folded on the turn after calling facing the cap.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn is the 5 . Sb checks, the other two check to me, I bet, sb checkraises, utg folds, cutoff calls two cold again, I threebet, and small blind CAPS. Now cutoff folds. Pot is at 22 BB.


[/ QUOTE ]

[rigoletto]

1. Was I overaggressive on the turn?

When sb smooth calls the flop and checkraises the turn after a preflop cap he's usually saying: 'I can beat AA (or have AA)'. AQ would likely 3-bet the flop here. I think just calling against an unknown opponent is prudent especially since a bluff from TT, 99 and the like will often fold to a 3-bet but keep bluffing if just called.

2. What did my opponent have?

If he's overagressive he could have AQ or AK diamonds, but I think it more likely that he holds a set: QQ, 88 or 66. From the tone of your post I do suspect that he showed down a hand that you beat (AQ, TT...).

3. Should I have raised on the river?

No way! Why open up the betting after he's shown strenght all the way!

[OrangeHeat]

[ QUOTE ]
3. Should I have raised on the river?

No way! Why open up the betting after he's shown strenght all the way!

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts exactly on the river - at this point I was already questioning my turn three-bet. Too bad I didn't think about it before three-betting it.

I'll post results after I get some more guesses. The posted is worded ambiguously so as not to sway any thoughts on the outcome.

Thanks for the response.

Orange

[Diplomat]

I would have to be a very rich man to raise the river, because I think raising is more fun than calling and I consider myself a generous human being. But since I'm a student, I'd call.

As for the turn three-bet, I'll often call the checkraise here and raise the river if: 1) a king comes off 2) a low card comes and pairs the board 3) depending on my opponent. There are some opponents on that site that I'd go to war with any day with a single pair, and there are many that I'd go limp against.

What did the sb have? Knowing your opponent helps a lot here, but I'd think one of AA, QQ, AQ, AKs of diamonds, possibly 88, or a complete total goofy bluff.

Oh wait a sec; I think I saw this hand. The 2 helped the sb's hand, right?

-Diplomat

[OrangeHeat]

Thanks for the reply. A small hint: The two did not help the small blind.

Orange

[OrangeHeat]

The sb turns over 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for a turned inside straight. Meh, Meh and Meh...

I had put him on trips or AA after he capped the turn...guess you can't put everyone on a hand...and be right. But this guy should be profitable for me in the long run /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Thanks for the comments.

Orange

[ZeeJustin]

I've seen people make huge reraises with 1 or 2 gap small-suited cards at the NL tables I play. Do fish just naturally love hands like 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, or is there just no pattern to their madness?

[Diplomat]

Putting him on 47s when he three-bets from the small blind is an obvious read, I'm shocked no one guessed it.

-Diplomat

[Ulysses]

Pre-flop, that's either a big pair, big cards, or a suited-connector type hand that he wants to build a big multi-way pot for in case he hits.

On the flop, he bets out, which means either a made hand or a big draw. If it's a draw, it's a double draw (flush + straight) leading into this big field. Since he doesn't reraise the flop, I doubt he has top pair or better made hand. I'd put him on flush draw + straight draw. If he had open-ended straight plus flush draw, he'd re-raise here. That eliminates hands like 7d9d or 5d7d. The likely hands here are 4d7d (flush + gutshot straight) or 9dTd or 9dJd.

Of those three, only 4d7d fits the action on the turn, so I'll guess that.

[OrangeHeat]

Nice guess after the results were posted /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[brad]

actually i was thinking the same thing the only thing didnt fit was reraise from sb. (still i considered it, who would know sb is crazy heh)

but u have to remember we have lot longer to think about it than u did at table.

[J_V]

Stay out of my games please...either you know how to read hands or have a horseshoe up your ass. Either one I may not be able to handle.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice guess after the results were posted /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif OK, I cheated (but you knew that, of course).

Seriously, my first guess was the obvious QQ. But since you implied it would be surprising (and I had a feeling you lost), I thought that 79s (which I've seen many people pump pre-flop) was the answer. I didn't think it could be 7d9d, since he would re-pop that on the flop. By this rationale, I don't think 4d7d is that far off - so I just slightly modified my post to fit the answer. And if some of you felt I may have been mocking the oft seen post-results expert analysis, you wouldn't be too far off base either.

[ajizzle]

I think your turn re-raise is fine. Since there were two diamonds on the flop, and a capped PF pot, I don't think SB has AA. He would have re-raised the flop with AA< because it is very dangerous to just call with a flush draw there. There is a converse to this, in that SB may know from the PF action that four-flushes will not fold on the flop for any amount, so he may be waiting for the turn to ram and jam, and risk the chance that the flush card comes off.

Since it was capped PF, I think it is very likely that SB has a pair. Since it is unlikely that He has AA, i think he has a set when he only calls the flop, but then caps the turn. He can afford to just call the flop, since he has outs even if the flush card comes. He ram and jams the turn however, when the flush card doesn't come, and he can run the flush draws out.

I just call the river. There is just too big of a chance that he has a set to be raising him here.

[ajizzle]

I guess we're all just lesser minds than this player. Our human brains are just not capable of understanding the wisdom behind a 3-bet with 47s. Pure genius in my opinion.

[Diplomat]

Soooted.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Soooted.

[/ QUOTE ]

Straight flush draw.

[Diplomat]

...And he knew it was coming before the flop. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Post flop he played it fine.

-Diplomat