Hollywood Park v. other LA clubs

[ChipWrecked]

Might have a few hours Oct. 29th (afternoon) to play some low-limit HE in LA.

I'll be in the west Valley (Woodland Hills) and figure that Hollywood Park is closest to there.

What's the rake in say, 2-4 or 3-6 at HP?

Would anyone make another recommendation as to a club?

I play in a normally passive 4-8/kill HE game in Sacramento area. Looking forward to playing enough to get a feel for the LA games.

Thanks in advance.

[squiffy]

Haven't been to Hollywood Park in years, but always loved going there. It's a great cardclub. I saw Todd Bridges, the kid from Different Strokes there a few times.


Hope you have fun and win some money.

[WEASEL45]

I think that either the bicycle or the hustler casinos are nicer. the bicycle is probably closer to where you are going to be.

[squiffy]

Where is this Hustler Casino people keep mentioning? I left LA about 2-3 years ago and don't remember anything about it then.

[onegymrat]

Unfortunately, it's not easy to get to any casino from where you'll be staying. HP may be the shortest, but the 405 will kill you with traffic. The Hustler is fairly new but small compared to the others, so you may not have as many tables as you expect. The Bike is my favorite overall due to the comfort of the casino, the sharpness of the employees and the amount of tables you'll see.

But to choose one in L.A., you must visit the mecca, "Commerce Casino" off the 5 fwy (10 minutes south of downtown L.A.). You'll have 12-15 $4-$8 tables going at once at any given moment. The players are the loosest and wildest in the country (I'm guessing). So hold on to your hat and enjoy the ride. Good luck.

[WEASEL45]

Hustler is in Gardena on Redondo Beach Blvd and Vermont off of the 405

[slavic]

You'll get a better deal on rake at the Bike and better games at commerce. I haven't been to Hustler yet but perhaps sometime this week I'll get a shot.

Just to give you an idea, if I lived within 200 miles of Commerce I'd make it my regular haunt. And that's with one of the worst rake structures in the land.

[squiffy]

When I used to visit the Commerce 3-4 years ago (maybe it was 5 years ago, not sure), it used to be kind of a ratty little place. Did they do a huge makeover? Or did they build a new casino altogether? When I see it on tv now, I don't even recognize it?

Moved to Fresno about 2 years ago. And hadn't been to the Commerce in about 2 years or so before that.

[squiffy]

I used to live only about 15 minutes away from the Commerce, but didn't go all that often. I was a breakeven to slightly negative player back then. Wish I knew then what I know now. Which is practically nothing. But practically nothing is better than nothing.

[Gabe]

Is where the old Eldorado was, just about a block south of the Normandy, off the 110.

[onegymrat]

You are sooo right, Commerce has the worst rake in all the land. For a $4-$8, it's $3 for the drop plus $1 for the jackpot. There is no chop between the sb or bb either, sb loses the blind (one chip) regardless.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Chip_rack

You got a lot of fair assessments in this thread.

I'm off on Wednesdays but if you decide on the Bike and can make it in another day (I work from about 1:00 pm to 8:00 pm and am alo off Sundays) come by and say hi. Ask the green chip floorman where I am.

Regards,

Rick

[baggins]

[ QUOTE ]
You are sooo right, Commerce has the worst rake in all the land. For a $4-$8, it's $3 for the drop plus $1 for the jackpot. There is no chop between the sb or bb either, sb loses the blind (one chip) regardless.



[/ QUOTE ]

don't know if you meant just L.A. or anywhere. but the rake is worse here in the chicagoland area.

[ChipWrecked]

Great replies, thanks all. I pay the 3+1 drop in Sac (no flop no drop) so no change there.

Looks like the Commerce then, probably Bike tonight if I can bail work early today /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

(hope this works, if I get too much time, that my wife knows about, a visit to dad-in-law's house will be obligatory)

(not that that's a bad thing. It just ain't as fun as a cardroom) /images/graemlins/cool.gif

(hope the smoke doesn't close I-5 /images/graemlins/blush.gif)

[Glurfle]

Rake at Hollywood Park for both the 2/4 and 3/6 is $3 on the flop, or $1 if no flop, plus $1 live on the button for the jackpot. I think the rake is lower at the Bike, but others can probably tell you exactly how much. There's an awful lot of angry players at the low limits in both places, but I can guarantee you that the HP 3/6 players are almost uniformly awful. Unfortunately, so are about 1 out of every 6 dealers.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Rake at Hollywood Park for both the 2/4 and 3/6 is $3 on the flop, or $1 if no flop, plus $1 live on the button for the jackpot. I think the rake is lower at the Bike, but others can probably tell you exactly how much. There's an awful lot of angry players at the low limits in both places, but I can guarantee you that the HP 3/6 players are almost uniformly awful. Unfortunately, so are about 1 out of every 6 dealers.

[/ QUOTE ]

As mentioned elsewhere in this thread I work at the Bike. We "only" drop $1 (and no jackpot drop) when there is no flop in limits below 10/20 (in the 2-3 no limit game we drop 50 cents). So we are a little better than most of the other clubs (and a lot better than the Commerce). Still, this isn't as good as I'd like but I'm working on it. Here is a link to one in a thread with some of my assorted rake rants and the direction I hope to eventually encourage the clubs to go:

http://tinyurl.com/lsn8

Regards,

~ Rick

[Alister]

I visited the LA area cardrooms from Phoenix last year. If your time is limited, go to the Bike and the Commerce. They are not that far apart and are both worth visiting (especially the Commerce).

[slavic]

Rick I have to say I really enjoyed my time at the Bike. The staff treated me like a king for a mid week, mid day affair. The Casino is very nice, and I was in an in a game within 15 minutes. You can't beat that.

Oh if you could only import those commerce players. I've been cursed, spat at, threatened, chip runner lost my buy in, and served the worst meal ever there. OMG the games are good.

[ChipWrecked]

Played 3/6 holdem at Commerce Tues night for about 3 hours. Won a rack.

Played 4/8 at Bike Weds. afternoon for hour and a half. Won a rack.

Games were soft and easy. I did get to experience some of the Commerce 'flavor'. Not as wild a game as I expected, but about every fifth pot was capped preflop. One regular played lots of hands and almost always came in for a raise.

Bike was tighter, mostly regulars, but there was a WPT baby whom we were happy to tutor /images/graemlins/grin.gif and a businessman on a drop-two-rack lunch. I loved the "no abuse" buttons the staff wore.

Hope my company offers me the promotion for which I was presumably in town to interview.

I love L.A.!

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
don't know if you meant just L.A. or anywhere. but the rake is worse here in the chicagoland area.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know the rake is often higher in areas devoid of much competition, but my understanding is the higher rake outside of Los Angeles comes out of big pots. In the Chicago area, let's say someone raises and the blinds fold (in a 3/6 game). What do they take, if anything?

Also, how much do they take in small pots, for example, two limpers in 3/6 and the small blind folds so the pot is $10. Someone bets the flop and all fold. What do they take?

Regards,

Rick

[ChipWrecked]

I'm all for you in theory, Rick. Wish I coulda met ya.

In practice, I'm afraid the dealers I saw at the Bike had trouble making side pots and seeing which kicker played (i.e. basic dealer stuff). I don't know if they could handle a more complex rake structure.

[baggins]

lowest game around these parts is 5-10. used to be a 4-8 but no longer i hear (i haven't played in a casino since last chrsitmas...) in any event, i believe the $1 jackpot gets dropped, but i think there is no rake if the blinds fold. it didn't happen often enough for me to remember. however, aside from the $1 jackpot drop, the rake is now 10% up to $6! it used to be $5, but i heard it was raised to $6. i am not confident on whether or not they rake a blind-steal. but i don't think they do.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm all for you in theory, Rick. Wish I coulda met ya.

In practice, I'm afraid the dealers I saw at the Bike had trouble making side pots and seeing which kicker played (i.e. basic dealer stuff). I don't know if they could handle a more complex rake structure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too bad we didn't meet. I always like to meet 2+2 posters, as long as they aren't in my game /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Anyway, one of the former top section props (and a very good dealer at one time) named Todd Bleak has been converted to a full time "dealer trainer". Last week he started serious mandatory training classes for the dealers. From what I have seen I believe Todd is capable of making considerable improvements to the dealing staff. IMO the Bike dealers seems to be typical for Los Angeles (i.e., they could use the training), but then again I tend to be very forgiving of dealers, especially considering the conditions they work under.

Regarding the more complex rake structure, from one of my posts in the rake thread at http://tinyurl.com/j3m3 from a few months back I wrote:

"A “double” is changing the drop so it is collected only when there is a called bet post flop. There is no modified drop."

The above method is less complex than the current method, where the Bicycle Casino drop (regaular and jackpot) is taken after the flop and part of the drop {the mofified drop) is taken if there is no flop.

I'd settle for the double but I'd rather hit a home run.

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

baggins,

Thanks for the information. Obviously with little competition, they can get what they want up to a point.

As much as I argue against full drops taken on small pots (the LA method), I expect rakes and drops to increase and to an extent the card clubs and casinos are justified because of inflation.

Here’s why. Let's say with inflation the value of a current dollar becomes 50 cents ten years from now (I know I'm probably not using correct terminology here but I only have ten minutes to write). In Los Angeles the lower end games are typically 3/6 holdem where a $3 per hand drop is collected. In ten years with inflation those same players should be playing 6/12 holdem at a constant comfort level (i.e., what they can afford relative to their income/bankroll). In Los Angeles the typical drop is $4 for 6/12 games. Obviously, this 33% increase in drop will be insufficient to cover an approximate 100% increase in expenses for the clubs.

Regards,

Rick a.k.a. “Benedict Arnold”

[Six_of_One]

Rick,

While this makes sense logically, clubs cannot simply raise rakes indefinitely, despite inflation. It's already bad enough in Los Angeles that there is pretty much no such thing as a good low-limit player, because anyone smart enough to play well is smart enough to know the rakes are ridiculous. Personally, I can't understand why they haven't killed their action already.

That being said, I have to say I do really like the fact that the Bike only takes $0.50 in the $100 NL when there isn't a flop. Taking nothing would be ideal, of course, but I would never go play the same game at Commerce given the way they handle those situations.

Six_of_One

[Michael Davis]

I don't think this is true at all.

I first learned to play in Detroit/Mount Pleasant (MI). The rake is higher there than in LA. Sure, the fact that it is a rake and not a drop helps, but at the low limits in LA, this NEVER matters since the pot is ALWAYS large at the low limits.

I find the amount of money being stolen from me to be lower here than anywhere else. I find my opponents to be worse here than anywhere else. I am making more $$ here than anywhere else. These games are easily beatable for 2+ big bets per hour, and I hope it is because all of the good players move up and beat up on each other.

-Mike

[Rick Nebiolo]

Six_of_One,

You wrote: ’While this makes sense logically, clubs cannot simply raise rakes indefinitely, despite inflation”

I'm not saying they can raise rakes indefinitely. I am saying that game sizes and rakes will track with inflation, allowing overall revenue for a typical game to stay even with inflation. The typical game will be bigger and have a higher rake/collection/drop. But the inflation-adjusted rake will be about the same.

For example, today let's say a typical low limit game is 3/6 with a $3 rake/drop. An upper low limit game might be 6/12 with a $4 drop. Many years from now if/when inflation halves the value of a dollar the typical low limit game might be 6/12 with a $6 drop and an upper low limit game might be a $12/24 with an $8 drop. You won't see many 2/4 or 3/6 games by then, just like you don't see too many 1/2 games now. The 20/40 player of today paying $12-$14 hour time charges should be comfortable playing 40/80 at the end of the inflationary period (in fact, it would be correct to say he didn't "move up" in limits at all). But he will be paying $24 per hour or so time charge. And in inflation-adjusted dollars, the “cost” will be about the same.

That being said, I believe card clubs overall rakes/drops/collection will tend to track below inflation because of efficiencies (e.g., shuffle machines) and competition. Or let’s hope so.

”It's already bad enough in Los Angeles that there is pretty much no such thing as a good low-limit player, because anyone smart enough to play well is smart enough to know the rakes are ridiculous.”

Once again, Los Angeles takes drop, not rake, and when the pots are small I agree the drop is ridiculous. That’s why you rarely see a table full of tightish players at low limits. If one forms, the players usually disperse into other games via table changes. Where you have rake, a 3/6 game full of semi-tight retirees can hold together (play mid week in Laughlin or suburban Las Vegas sometimes).

”Personally, I can't understand why they haven't killed their action already.”

They (the Los Angeles Clubs) have killed some but the market is so big and the competition is restricted so most individual clubs don’t feel it. My focus will continue to be finding a way to decrease drop on small pots, since this will open up the market to the low limit semi-rocks. These people will come in early when the clubs are dead, yet the evening and weekend games will only tighten up a little (and to an extent this tightening up will be welcome, as it reduces swings and helps 6/12 players develop skills needed to become 20/40 players).

“That being said, I have to say I do really like the fact that the Bike only takes $0.50 in the $100 NL when there isn't a flop. Taking nothing would be ideal, of course, but I would never go play the same game at Commerce given the way they handle those situations.”

Thanks. The relatively small, modified drop helps but it would be even better if the drop were triggered by called action post flop. When the game is good the club won’t notice a drop in revenue, but when the game tightens up (and even low limit games tighten up at times), the game would hold together until it loosens up again.

BTW, I played NL an hour last night at the Bike and lost one buy in. That hour the game was only fair, with many pots taken down by a preflop raise (modified drop of 50 cents) or a bet on the flop ($3 drop plus $1 jackpot). In the second case the drop really hurts. Fortunately, most of the time the game is pretty good.

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

Mike,

You wrote: ”I don't think this is true at all.

I first learned to play in Detroit/Mount Pleasant (MI). The rake is higher there than in LA. Sure, the fact that it is a rake and not a drop helps, but at the low limits in LA, this NEVER matters since the pot is ALWAYS large at the low limits.”

I disagree with “NEVER and ALWAYS”. Sometimes, especially during the day, pots are small and games have problems getting going or staying together because of the drop system. I agree that in a good game with big pots you won’t notice the difference between drop and rake.

”I find the amount of money being stolen from me to be lower here than anywhere else. I find my opponents to be worse here than anywhere else. I am making more $$ here than anywhere else. These games are easily beatable for 2+ big bets per hour, and I hope it is because all of the good players move up and beat up on each other.”

I agree that despite (and to an extent, because of) the drop, the 4/8 to 9/18 games are very beatable in Los Angeles (this is the level I currently prop at, so I tend to have to play in the worse games). I also believe the drop prevents tight games from often forming or staying tight since the drop tends to drive tight players away.

BTW, my regular game tends to be 10/20 to 20/40, and in those games I welcome a few or even a whole table full of weak tight players. Since the collection is relatively smaller, I can run over them. But several weak tight players and a $4 + $1 drop in a 6/12 game makes for a very bad game.

Regards,

Rick