Sizing up a new guy

Before I got in the game I was talking with a couple of my buddies outside and they were telling me about the new guy who was running over the game by getting real lucky.


He was in seat four and I started out in seat six. Seats two and three were moderately tight which normally means I would move to seat one when it came open. Twice it came open, with no board, and twice the dealer and at least one player expressed surprise that I did not take the one seat.


The new guy noticed this, and both times, he and I had one of those delightful, silent, glancing conversations. It went like this:


New guy: "You usually take the one seat, and tonight you're not. Is it because of me?"


Me: "Yes."


My buddies had the wrong read on this player. Yes, he played lots of hands. Yes, he always came in raising. Yes, he bluffed on the river. But no, he was not a soft spot, not at all. During the first few rounds that I saw him play, it would have been easy to size him up as a maniac, if not for one, just one, tiny little play that he made. He was in the small blind, five players limped, and he mucked, preflop, for two chips.


That was all I needed to know. This guy was a player, an impact danger, and this was a rare case where my preference for who was on my right outweighed who was on my left. So I stayed put.


Tommy

"my buddies. . . were telling me about the new guy who was running over the game by getting real lucky.

-Reminds me of John Fox's story about the "almost legendary ASQ."


"twice the dealer. . . expressed surprise that I did not take the one seat."

-Dealers should be seen and not heard.


"He was in the small blind, five players limped, and he mucked, preflop, for two chips."

-He might have had 7-2 off-suit, but a great point: watching a player's habits from the small blind tells you an awful lot about his game.

"my buddies. . . were telling me about the new guy who was running over the game by getting real lucky.

-Reminds me of John Fox's story about the "almost legendary ASQ."


What story is this? (do you have a link?)

Me: "He was in the small blind, five players limped, and he mucked, preflop, for two chips."


Andy: "He might have had 7-2 off-suit,"


I thought of that, while playing, and again while posting. I've never seen a maniac fold an unraised small blind in a seven way pot. Heck, I've hardly seen anyone do it that wasn't a winning player. This means that I've seen many many times when the SB played 7-2 for two chips. They just didn't get to a showdown most of the time. The point is, when I saw him fold, I knew he was a positionally sensative player. The mere awareness of this possibility, that was later verified, was worth a bundle in sizing him up quickly.


Tommy

From John Fox's classic book, "Play Poker, Quit Work, and Sleep Until Noon." He talks about "the almost legendary ASQ" (a real person who I still see on occasion at Commerce in L.A.) who played draw poker in a way that made his opponents think he was a complete dodo, but his play was actually quite sophisticated and he was a consistent winner.


The book in long out of print.

If playing with strangers, usually on the road, I'll call with anything in an unraised pot from my small blind the first several times the opportunity presents itself, so as to create the impression your buddies had of this guy in those prone to notice such things.


A tight image is probably better for hold 'em than a loose image, but in the short run, an image of being both loose and bad can be very profitable.

Tommy


This is an excellent post, and might I say, an excellent read on your part. It would be very easy to overlook that one little fact that made you stay put. However, folding in a five-way pot from the SB for ½ a bet says quite a bit about someone's play. This guy may have been getting slammed by the deck, but he wasn't a maniac. He may in fact be loose-aggressive, but there are varying degrees of LAG players.


Most players consider me to be pretty tight, but one of my friends, whom is a writer and very knowledgeable (and winning) player, considers me to be fairly loose-aggressive. Well, I basically consider him fairly close to rock. We both admit each other's points as having some validity. And – he would rather have me on his right, and I would rather have him on my left. Works out great for both of us. He IS tighter than I am, especially before the flop. Post flop we play much more similarly. However, he does not underestimate me. He knows I am a dangerous opponent. But if I were to sit down as an unkown player to him, then get lots of playable hands in a short time, especially if there were lots of raising hands, he might conclude differently. Unless I folded for ½ a bet in the SB getting 11:1 odds….


The fact that you had that "unspoken conversation" also indicates that he knows what he is doing.


The fact that you noticed his fold, and its significance, shows that you are doing what all good players SHOULD do, PAY ATTENTION TO THE GAME.


Dave in Cali

"A tight image is probably better for hold 'em than a loose image, but in the short run, an image of being both loose and bad can be very profitable. "


I believe this is true only if your opponents are paying attention to how you play. Even poor playing opponents sometimes notice when someone is extremely tight, and will therefore sometimes not give them much action. Against these opponents, it doesn't hurt to loosen up your image a little. You never want to have an image that is SO tight that loose, poor playing opponents won't give you any action. They are the ones you WANT action from.


However, against those who are totally oblivious, it doesn't really matter. Like one of my favorite stories... I was in a game at the mirage, full of totally clueless individuals. I was literally the only player in the game, by a mile. I folded every single hand (except for free plays in the BB) for 4 orbits. Then, I came out raising UTG and got SEVEN callers. The flop was King high, all spades, and I had AKo with the As. I bet the whole way, made the nut flush on the river when the 8s came, and got called by a woman with Ah8h. Image makes no difference in THESE games.


Good thread guys.


Dave in Cali


BTW - I am changing my email address. I will only check the old one for about another month. Please use the new one listed on this post from now on.

Tommy,


Your impression helped me against this guy a lot later in the night. When we talked, he had three-bet me on the TURN at least twice with nothing but a gutshot draw and a naked ace overcard while you were there. Maybe more times: I only saw the two he hit on the river. He did it again right after you left, hitting again. By the second time he knew my turn raises meant something, so he was just spewing chips and hitting. He was also routinely checkraising the flop with any two cards, even four way.


At the same time he was being aggressive as hell, he started backing down or folding immediately when I bet. A couple of times after you left I three-bet him on the flop and he folded for the third bet. After I check-called him all the way 2-3 times with top pair, he quit firing into me and stuck to other players, but by then he'd toned his game down overall.


Your read was dead on: loose-aggressive but thinking and dangerous.


Matt

"he would rather have me on his right, and I would rather have him on my left. Works out great for both of us."


I wrote about this symbiotic relationship a while back and since then I've paid more attention to it, evaluating its validity. I'm more convinced than ever that these relationships serve me and my symbiants well.


Tommy

Andy: "A tight image is probably better for hold 'em than a loose image, but in the short run [say, on the road, as you mentioned], an image of being both loose and bad can be very profitable."


I don't doubt that a loose image can be profitable on the road, and to some degree the cards will naturally help send a false signal sometimes.


But I still much prefer a tight image, even on the road, because I feel like I make far more by getting undue respect with marginal hands than I do by getting paid off with big hands.


My very favorite way to start a session on the road is to take the BB and fold to a raise, take the SB and fold when there is no raise, then three-bet from the button on the next hand against players who noticed the blind mucks. Let's gambo!


Tommy

I read your symbiot post and fully agree with you. There are several players I know who have this sort of relationship with me, they usually want me on their right because I am aggressive, and I usually want them on my left because they will fold to a raise most of the time. Our playing styles naturally lead to such a symbiotic relationship. If you can identify these relationships, and you know the players, sometimes you can even purposely switch seats just for this reason. My friend I mentioned ALWAYS switches seats with me as soon as the seat next to one of us opens up. We know where we want to be, and we know each other, so we just do what has to be done.


An interesting side note is that you said you prefer seat 1? Both my friend and I like the ends, whether that be 2 and 3 or 8 and 9, and we try to maneuver into these positions when we can.


Dave in Cali

"I still much prefer a tight image, even on the road, because I feel like I make far more by getting undue respect with marginal hands than I do by getting paid off with big hands."


Unquestionably holdem is a game where you miss most of your flops, so I agree that I'd rather get undue respect with marginal hands than getting paid off with big hands. Somewhat paradoxically, you can get that respect, before they "see" how you play, by being in hands more often than you might otherwise be in your regular game. With a tight image, they "know" a raggedy flop must have missed you; not so with a loose image.


"My favorite way to start a session on the road is to take the BB and fold to a raise, take the SB and fold when there is no raise, then three-bet from the button"


Sounds like the same way you start a session at home. :-)

My main thoughts on symbiotic seat selection are that I tend to play better if I have a friend sitting beside me.

excellent posts


jg

That's because it's too embarrasing to get caught playing trash, especially if you give your friend a bad beat with your 83o!