Poll: Are you a thief?

[Homer]

Some recent posts made by Lebronomania have made me wonder what percentage of people who post here are worthless. I have decided to create a poll to satisfy my curiousity.


Thank you for your cooperation.

-- Homer

[crockpot]

who am i stealing from?

specifically i'd like to answer yes for party poker and no for the boys and girls club, and anything in between is a maybe.

[Homer]

who am i stealing from?

Does it matter? If so, why?

specifically i'd like to answer yes for party poker and no for the boys and girls club, and anything in between is a maybe.

Why wouldn't you mind stealing from Party Poker? Is it because they are a large entity, and won't miss the money, or because they have screwed you out of money in the past (for example, due to untimely disconnections)? Maybe a combination?

-- Homer

[daryn]

i'm not a thief, i think stealing is wrong... but whatever, people steal. i'm not gonna go crazy or get pissed off about it, unless of course it's my stufF!

[Homer]

i'm not gonna go crazy or get pissed off about it, unless of course it's my stufF!

I tend not to sit around obsessing about it either, but when someone brags publicly about being a thief, it really sets me off.

-- Homer

[daryn]

i guess so, i mean.. thieves exist.. and they always will. but i hear you

[crockpot]

okay, add steve bartman to the party poker category.

and i think i should be paid $5 every time i put up with a party poker disconnect. what really disturbs me is that none of the fish are moving to a site like paradise, stars or ub where they are needed.

[Homer]

Why not answer my questions? Guess I am wasting my breath here...

[skaboomizzy]

I've been known to download music, so I guess I am a thief.

[Homer]

I am utterly shocked that 44.4% of people who have responded thus far are not opposed to stealing.

I guess it is true that gamblers in general tend to be low-life scumbags.

-- Homer

[Cyndie]

I have used "pirated" software before I purchased it, but not kept on using it if I didn't buy it.

But these kinds of questions are easier answered in the third person; hypothetically... if you say how honest you are, either people don't believe you, or they are upset or jealous that they aren't ...

If you say how dishonest you are, people won't want to deal with you...or won't trust you...so what you get are "non-answers" or examples of kind of honest, but not hurting anyone, or "justified" like, I am sure I have purchased all sorts of software that I didn't use, and software that I paid for and didn't get service, then got a copy of a later edition...I had paid for something that I didn't get...am I justified in getting something from the same people later that I didn't pay for to "square" things?

If you buy software and use it on your laptop and your desktop and then give your desktop to your kids...do you need to pay for the old copy of software? How about if you don't really use it very often?

Same types of situations for music...and this is one I am not guilty of...but is more music/software sold because of the piracy? or is less sold? Is it still theft? Theoretically you could install and uninstall the software every time you wanted to use it. You would only be in violation if you were using it simultaneously

Where is the line, and who is the judge? What happens when some people get prosecuted and others don't? I think these are perhaps more useful questions than are "you" honest? and how do they tie in to poker? Is there a line where it becomes unethical to "table talk" or "trash talk?"

Are we looking to work with the people here? or play cards?? Are they friends? or acquaintances?

[Cyndie]

You didn't ask if they were opposed did you? wasn't the question more along the lines of "would you do it?" Lots of people are opposed to all sorts of things that they do sometimes...things like cigarettes and fattening food...staying up late and getting to work late! Something could be said for the fact that those tend to be crimes against oneself, but you are stealing time from an employer if you are late or overtired...unless you justify it by saying you work harder than others who have your job...slippery slopes all over the place.

and are poker players noticeably worse than others, or perhaps more honest about their own weaknesses?

There is also the point of being much easier to be honest when you are sure you have a home and food and clothes than when you don't!

[Homer]

You didn't ask if they were opposed did you?

I sure thought that's what I was asking.

wasn't the question more along the lines of "would you do it?"

I can't imagine people opposed to stealing doing so (maybe stealing food if starving or something like that, but I doubt that applies to anyone posting here) and vice versa.

and are poker players noticeably worse than others, or perhaps more honest about their own weaknesses?

My guess would be that poker players are worse than others, though maybe I have had too high an opinion of people to this point in my life. I have a hard time imagining 44.4% of the general population being thieves.

There is also the point of being much easier to be honest when you are sure you have a home and food and clothes than when you don't!

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

-- Homer

[Cyndie]

you made a comment about "if you were starving" Homer, are you poor, seemingly without choices? and have to make a value judgment about whether you would steal? or are you middle or upper class and have few worries about much more than which college your kids are going to go to ...or which vacation you are going to take next year....It is a lot easier to be honest when you have plenty.

When people have their backs against the wall and are still honest...that is much more a test of character than asking a person who has fifty cd's whether he would steal one or not.

I am not saying that the middle class person didn't earn the security...or that middle class people are less honest. I am only saying the situtations are not the same...Younger people go through a cynical phase in their teens to their thirties often when "right" and "wrong" aren't choices they make, but ones society makes and judges them by standards they do not accept.

Often later in life, when those people have accepted the standards (children have a lot to do with settling people down), they make different choices of right and wrong...much more mainstream. Behavior that may not be "right" in a twenty something is downright ugly in a "forty" something!

Sigh, I guess what I am also trying to say is that "forcing" someone to do right is not "allowing" them to make a decision. The test of a person is more what you do when no one is watching.

[Homer]

I read your post 2-3 times and I can't figure out exactly what you're getting at. Probably a sign that I need to go to bed and come back and read it again in the morning.

Will respond then...

-- Homer

[JTrout]

[ QUOTE ]
I am utterly shocked that 44.4% of people who have responded thus far are not opposed to stealing.

I guess it is true that gamblers in general tend to be low-life scumbags.



[/ QUOTE ]
.
What % of the 55.6% of non-thieves do you think are lying?

[Drunk Bob]

I have stolen and I am ashamed of it.A long time ago.

[ThingDo]

I picked up a candy bar at a gas station, got my coke and forgot to pay for the candybar... I went back later and gave them the money I owed them after I realised what I'd done. I didn't feel good about it even though it was an honest mistake. I would hope that everyone else would do the same thing given an opportunity to do so.

[lorinda]

My guess would be that poker players are worse than others, though maybe I have had too high an opinion of people to this point in my life. I have a hard time imagining 44.4% of the general population being thieves.


From my experiences, poker players are much more likely than average to do the following things:

1.) Steal from banks/credit card companies/taxmen. In fact anybody who represents "the authority".

2.) Steal from large companies that "do not need the money"

3.) Rush to the defence of someone being attacked in the street.

4.) Walk elderly ladies across the road.

5.) Help out if a friend has a problem.


Make of that lot what you will, just observations made in my medium term in the business.

Lori

[MHoydilla]

From lorinda's post, More likly to "Rush to the defence of someone being attacked in the street." What they rush over there to steal the guys walet. Come on lets get serious, poker players are scumbags and Im proud to be one.

[Stagemusic]

From lorinda's post, More likly to "Rush to the defence of someone being attacked in the street." What they rush over there to steal the guys walet. Come on lets get serious, poker players are scumbags and Im proud to be one.

Unfortunately, YOU are exactly the type of person that Homer was talking about. Fortunately, you are exactly 180 degrees from correct. Most Poker Players are honest to a fault. In my experience there are far more "dishonest" people away from a game than in it. Of course, nothing is 100%. Poker does have it's share of angle shooters, cheats, and liars. Some of it is part of the game. Those that go outside the lines are usually caught and don't survive in the long run. When large sums of money exchange hands you are bound to run into the occassional donkey who will try to cheat to get a larger share. Honest, trustworthy people are the ones that will eventually rise to the top...keep looking up. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Stagemusic]

okay, add steve bartman to the party poker category.

Crock, I usually like most of the tips and points that you make. Until this assinine statement. I grew up in the same town you live in now, I have been a Cubs fan since I can remember. I was around in '69, '84, '89, '98 and '03. I have cheered, cried, and watched in wonder as the years slipped by. It is statements like you made above that cause me to hang my head in a little shame for being a Cub fan...you people just don't get it. The man did nothing that any other fan would not have done. PERIOD. Look at the tape dammit. He NEVER looks toward the field. Alou is not yelling. Other fans are pushing TOWARD the ball as well. It just happened to hit his hand. It was a foul ball...strike 2... there was 1 out and runners on the corners with the Cubs STILL leading by 2. Two plays later Gonzales BOOTS an easy play to let the game be tied...THAT is what cost the game. Not the poor SOB that everyone is trying to blame. Would you people please look at what really happened. Blame our heroes. Blame Baker. Blame Gonzales. Hell, blame Rodriguez. Whoever, just don't blame this poor schmuck who simply did what anyone else would have done. End Rant. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Jim Easton]

Well said, Stagemusic.

[ QUOTE ]
The man did nothing that any other fan would not have done. PERIOD.

[/ QUOTE ]

His team was up 2 runs in the top of the 8th. The "curse" was about to be broken. All of a sudden a souvenir from this event was about to land in his lap. I question the honesty of who says they wouldn't try to catch the ball. They might like to think they would have gotten out of the way, but if they were actually in the situation, they would have done the same thing. If you are at a game and a foul ball is coming right at you, you don't pay attention to much else, if for no other reason than personal safety.

It is funny that people put more blame on a fan who touched one foul ball than on the team that actually played 9 innings.

[daryn]

but are you REALLY shocked? if you've lived more than 15 years on earth you shouldn't be.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
I have a hard time imagining 44.4% of the general population being thieves.

[/ QUOTE ]


this forum hardly reflects the general population

[Homer]

but are you REALLY shocked? if you've lived more than 15 years on earth you shouldn't be.

Yes. Forgive me for having faith in humanity.

-- Homer

[daryn]

you are forgiven, just don't do it again!

[Homer]

this forum hardly reflects the general population

Umm, that was the point of my post. Did you read the post or did you just skim until you found something you could respond to with a one-liner?

-- Homer

[Homer]

Come on lets get serious, poker players are scumbags and Im proud to be one.

Proud to be a scumbag? What do you mean by this?

-- Homer

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
Did you read the post or did you just skim until you found something you could respond to with a one-liner?


[/ QUOTE ]

bingo baby

[Cyndie]

I have a lot of faith in humanity too, Homer...have been burned plenty, but not without my own consent, but the success is awesome when it happens!

The point is, that people do what they believe meets their needs...the goal then is to have doing right for the sake of doing right...meet their needs... not to spoonfeed people so they never get the joy of doing the right thing for "intrinsic" reasons, however, but the joy of solving a problem and having a good result.

Stealing is just an easy way out...temporarily.

Jim will say that he wouldn't steal even if he were hungry and homelss, and I believe that...because JimE would find another solution...he wouldn't go hungry!

[Cyndie]

Homer, I have met some totally wonderful people at poker tables...and some scumbags...it appears that poker attracts the *extremes* the very ethical and the not ethical at all...It has to do with what premises, or principles you start off with...

When you follow principles to conclusions you get very different answers to the same question...on the one had, it isn't ok to steal at all...on the other, you can steal when it is convenient, but get angry with others who steal from you because the underlying premise in one situation is

"do unto others as you would have them do unto you (or the slightly more accurate...do unto others as they would like you to, and they rate to do unto you as you would like!)

versus

"do unto others before they get a chance to do unto you"

In the first case, you rate to surround yourself with like minded people, and you can sleep peacefully at night, and not have to guard your back all the time...In the second case, you seem to attract people who are like that, and get to live with the idea that if you aren't always watching out for yourself...someone is going to *get* you.

In both cases you rate to be right more often than not.

[ZManODS]

I stole my grandma heart medication just for fun. She died later that day. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[tiltboy]

I agree with you 100%. Go read this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=385402&amp;Main=374274#Post38 5273) on the 'other poker' forum by DPCondit. There are ethics in poker despite what some people have deluded themselves into believing.

[crockpot]

sigh...i know what you say is true. it's just hard sitting here for six months of baseball downtime, watching my least favorite team in all of baseball win the series for a city that didn't realize they had a baseball team until about october 15th.

while i don't want any harm to come upon the fan, at the same time it hurts seeing the team collapse yet again. hopefully this time they'll actually come back next year with a vengeance.

for the record, i blame cubs management, but that's another rant that could go on for hours if i'm not careful. i just hope they seize the initiative and make some moves this winter while prior, patterson and zambrano are still cheap.

[PokerholicAnonymous]

Excellent points Cyndie. I, for one, would always steal if I knew I could get away with it. But if I felt there was a good chance I'd be reraised for all my chips, then I'd reconsider. :-)

[Lebronomania]

I thought it was interesting, Game 6 or 7 of the ALCS in NY. I believe men on 1st and 2nd. Bernie Williams (i think) hits a line drive inside the 1st base bag, fair ball, bounces into foul territory, EVERY SINGLE FAN ALONG THE 1ST BASELINE REACHES FOR THE BALL. Mind you, its a fair ball in the field of play. One fan touches the ball, making it a ground rule double. Instead of the guy on 1st scoring, he's given 3rd. I haven't heard that fan get demonized.

I think its more than trying to reach for a souvenir in the case of the Cubs fan. I remember whenever the ball was hit in my general direction at a baseball game my first instinct was to protect myself. I mean, that ball is coming in pretty damn fast. It can be scary. It might seem weird, but the best way to protect yourself from getting hit by the ball is to try to catch it. Its a reflex.

[Lebronomania]

I find it more low class to insult people for honestly responding to your poll than to respond honestly to your poll that stealing is okay. You've been very casual in calling all those who disagree with your worldview "scumbags" and "lowlifes". Maybe, just maybe, you're not the final arbiter of right and wrong in the universe.

Just for the record, I voted for "I would not steal if there was 100% chance I would not get caught". The last time I stole anything (and, actually, the first time) was 10 years ago.

[Cyndie]

Great point pokerholic...it is perfectly normal to "steal" in poker...and the reraise is what keeps us honest!

Thank you for relating this topic to the poker table again. I think Homer has some real life issues that are very valid...but if we talk about the table...we all know where the obvious "steal" opportunities are....Who has some ideas about bluffs that have worked? and why...what did you see in your opp that gave you a feel for when it would work.

Homer...I will start another thread with this if you don't like this direction...but there is actually something to be said for "legal" theft at the poker table being a way of sublimating or redirecting things that aren't acceptable in life, but are...the link that someone gave to the other forum was interesting.

I personally make a distinction between things I volunteer at the table, and things in response to questions by opps...If I volunteer at the table, I do not lie...if you ask me what I have that is a different thing entirely...Angles I don't like to shoot, versus misdirection that is ok.

[yct]

When I completely missed the board, does stealing a pot count? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Homer]

I find it more low class to insult people for honestly responding to your poll than to respond honestly to your poll that stealing is okay

Insulting those who steal is worse than stealing? Right.

You've been very casual in calling all those who disagree with your worldview "scumbags" and "lowlifes"

You act as if it is a matter of agreement/disagreement, when it is not. It is a matter of right/wrong. I am right, those who steal are wrong.

Just for the record, I voted for "I would not steal if there was 100% chance I would not get caught". The last time I stole anything (and, actually, the first time) was 10 years ago.

Good to hear.

You will hear nothing further from me on this subject, as this will be my last post on this forum.

-- Homer

[tiltboy]

[ QUOTE ]
You will hear nothing further from me on this subject, as this will be my last post on this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]
Homey, please tell me you meant to say thread or subject instead of forum in the above?

[Cyndie]

with ideas on acceptable and not acceptable table "ploys" or "angles"

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
It is a matter of right/wrong. I am right, those who steal are wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

ouch. it's a shame that a man who thinks himself to be intelligent could say such a statement. do you see why?

i'll let others elaborate.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Robk]

[ QUOTE ]
You will hear nothing further from me on this subject, as this will be my last post on this forum.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry to hear that Bernie.

[Lebronomania]

[ QUOTE ]
You act as if it is a matter of agreement/disagreement, when it is not. It is a matter of right/wrong. I am right, those who steal are wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, mankind has been struggling with issues of right and wrong for nigh on 10 millenia. I'm so glad to hear that the issue has finally been resolved!

So, eh, if your child was dying from hunger, would it be wrong to steal food? Or, how 'bout a harder one, you're a feudal serf, and you make almost nothing from your labor, giving almost all your food that that there Lord up in that sparkling castle. Is it wrong to dissemble how much wheat you actually produced so that you can keep more for yourself and your family?

There are 10 million variations that produce a more difficult question of right and wrong than the general "is it wrong to steal?" You know, I used to be like you Homer Jay. I used to think right and wrong was pretty black and white. Then I went to law school.

[ QUOTE ]
You will hear nothing further from me on this subject, as this will be my last post on this forum.


[/ QUOTE ]

lol The classic "Screw you guys, I'm going home." My god, man, when people disagree with you, listen to their arguments, make a new independent judgment, then if you still belive your original position is correct, advocate your viewpoint with intelligence and class. Never lash out, and never avoid.

[Homer]

So, eh, if your child was dying from hunger, would it be wrong to steal food? Or, how 'bout a harder one, you're a feudal serf, and you make almost nothing from your labor, giving almost all your food that that there Lord up in that sparkling castle. Is it wrong to dissemble how much wheat you actually produced so that you can keep more for yourself and your family?

IIRC, this discussion started when you commented that you stole playing cards from Waldenbooks to sell to others, and saw absolutely nothing wrong with doing so. Do you honestly see no difference between stealing profit from Waldenbooks to line your pockets and stealing bread to feed your starving family?

The fact is approximately 35% of the posters here stated they would steal. I highly doubt they were picturing themselves as feudal serfs when responding to the poll.

lol The classic "Screw you guys, I'm going home." My god, man, when people disagree with you, listen to their arguments, make a new independent judgment, then if you still belive your original position is correct, advocate your viewpoint with intelligence and class. Never lash out, and never avoid.

When it is plain to see that there is no chance of getting a point across to others, I see no reason to continue arguing.

Incidentally, you should remember to follow your own advice, specifically that of never lashing out. You had no reason to mock me by stating that my mother must proud of me for knowing a big word, but you did so anyway.

-- Homer

p.s. - I apologize for posting since I said in my last post that I would not do so again.

[Lebronomania]

"Stealing" is defined as "The taking (of the property of another) without right or permission." (dictionary.com)

So is it wrong? The answer is YES. By definition, stealing is wrong. The question is as nonsensical as asking whether murder is wrong. Of course, murder is wrong, 'cause its defined as the unlawful killing of another. But the real question is whether a particular killing is wrong. Killing is sometimes justified, whereas murder by definition is not.

So to bring us back to stealing, the real question to be asked is whether under specified circumstances a particular "taking of another's property" is without right, i.e., wrongful. I'm sure you can come up with thousands of scenarios in which a certain taking my be justified.

[Homer]

This thread is beginning to clog up the forum, as no one else is participating. If you would like to continue the discussion, feel free to contact me via PM.

-- Homer

[Lebronomania]

[ QUOTE ]
When it is plain to see that there is no chance of getting a point across to others, I see no reason to continue arguing.


[/ QUOTE ]

More often than not people arguing conflicting views will reach an impasse. We can argue 'till we're blue in the face whether god exists, or whether the '85 bears could beat the '72 dolphins. But it doesn't mean that the argument isn't still informative or productive. I dont argue to persuade (I've given up on that), I argue to demonstrate that there are different ways of looking at a given issue..and just for fun. Who knows, maybe something you say to someone on this forum will impact 'em years later.

[ QUOTE ]
Incidentally, you should remember to follow your own advice, specifically that of never lashing out. You had no reason to mock me by stating that my mother must proud of me for knowing a big word, but you did so anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh well, I guess ur right on that one. But, as Maude says in the movie Harold and Maude, "consistency was never a human virtue."

[David]

I own a company that sells retail from my business location and wholesale to other companies. About five months ago I wholesaled a number of items in one group to another company. I did have some dealings with this company previously, but not much. They were not then and I knew they never would be a regular customer. For reasons known only to the owner of that business he always tries to do business in ca$h. He paid me for the items in ca$h (low to mid 5 figures). When I was balancing out later that day I noticed I had $1000 too much ca$h. I called him as I knew it had to be from him (no, I had not counted the money when he gave it to me, I had watched him count it and he was interupted several times) and told him I was over on my balance sheet for the day&gt; I asked him if he wasmissing any money and after awhile he came back on and said he was short $1000. I gave it to him the next day. I can tell you with all the deals he does he never would have known where it went. He even told me this. What surprised me was he was shocked I gave it back to him. I wonder what that shock meant? If the deal had been reversed.......... Never mind, who cares. Well in the last ONE month two seperate thefts have cost me and my business over $6000. I have been broken into twice on Sunday nights in the last month. What's the point? I would still return the money. AND.....I am going to spend a few nights in the coming month at my business with my trusty AK47 (yes, I really do have one). The laws in Texas are crystal clear. A citizen has the right to use deadly force to protect life and property. I'll not steal from anyone, Party Poker included, but I'll not be stolen from either. The next person who decides to break into my home or business will be met by me, my AK47, and a full 40 round clip. Thievery is WRONG.

[yct]

AND.....I am going to spend a few nights in the coming month at my business with my trusty AK47 (yes, I really do have one).

wow, i hope we dont see u in the news...

[Losing all]

Great post David! I'm certain I'd do the exact same thing, despite being screwed so many times myself. I'm not a religious person, but I always try to do whats right(in my mind, probably very different from most). During some of the lowest points in my life I was helped by helping others.

As far as stealing, I've never so much as lifted a snickers. And that's growing up with some of the worst types of thiefs, junkies, and worse in the Detroit area. Would I pop a dealer or pimp with 100K on him if I was 100% sure to get away with it, you bet.

BTW David- If it were me kicking in your door we'd put on a real fireworks display with your big slick and my CAR-15 with 2 30's hanging /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Jim Kuhn]

She probably would have died anyway! You probably did her a favor by cutting short her pain and suffering!

[Cyndie]

I do not like the idea of a world where only the gov't has guns....and I am a staunch supporter of the second amendment...However, I am not so sure I like the idea of the two of you with guns of that magnitude while under the alcofluence of inkohol, or on a day when your hair decided to misbehave...Oh no, that would be *me* on a bad hair day...I wouldn't trust me with a derringer.


Well, maybe you get the drift...weapons are not the solution to very many problems. At least not a very good solution and usually way too permanent.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]

Well, maybe you get the drift...weapons are not the solution to very many problems. At least not a very good solution and usually way too permanent.


[/ QUOTE ]

Where is the harm in killing a few thieves? Good riddence to them, if they are stealing to feed their family they should have gotten a job instead.

[Losing all]

I'm well trained in the use of my weapon, and haven't carried it into a post office yet. Too much fire power? Better to have too much and not need it, etc, etc, etc.

[Jim Kuhn]

David,

A similar situation happened to me. I was burglarized 3 times over a 3 month period. I parked my car at a friends and slept with a 12 guage shotgun in my hands several nights. Unfortunately, the thieves never returned. I hope you have better luck. The world would be a much better place without those thieves. Make sure of your target, shoot first and ask questions later!

I wish I could help by guarding the back door. It was some hectic nights laying there wondering if I would wake up when the thieves broke in. I know I went to work red eyed several days. Good luck and I hope you do not have too many sleepless nights!

[chesspain]

[Cyndie]

Look at the box of options below your text box in the reply screen...you get pop up boxes to enter text and the formatting goes like what is below, except i changed one of the [ to a { so it would show as examples...

1) choose poll start and type your question in the popup box. {pollstart]
{polltitle=x]


2) choose poll option and put your answers one option at a time {polloption=y]



3) choose poll stop {pollstop]

[Tyler Durden]

On Columbus Day of this year I walked into a Baltimore area gas station to get directions to BWI. It was 2:15 PM. I walked in to find a robbery going on. A man was standing at the registers with a black handkerchief over his face and a silver gun in his hand. If I had a gun on me (I don't own one) I would have used it. Stealing like that (even if he is stealing to feed someone or himself) is still wrong and I have no sympathy for someone who endangers the lives of others.

[Cyndie]

[Jim Easton]

[ QUOTE ]
The laws in Texas are crystal clear. A citizen has the right to use deadly force to protect life and property.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought about adding this tidbit to Husker's Texas Law post. Most states don't allow deadly force to protect property. If thieves started getting shot on the spot, there would be a significant reduction in such crimes. As it is, most property crimes go unsolved. Our Jeep was stolen a few months ago. It was found in the parking lot of an apartment complex a few days later. The police called us to come get it. They didn't bother dusting it for finger prints nor did they dust any of the tools the theives used to steal it. Whoever stole it will never face any punishment. I'm sure the theft was justified, though. They probably needed it to drive to the store to steal some bread for their starving children.

[Losing all]

What if the thief was also a methhead and slashing a little old ladys face with a razor knife?

[Tyler Durden]

I hate to answer one question with another but it's better to act with a firearm rather than having him shoot an innocent bystander, no?

[Jim Easton]

I imagine if Tyler had a gun, and if he were licensed to carry it, he would not endanger an innocent bystander.

[Vehn]

[Tyler Durden]

[Cyndie]

How about if prison were a place where anyone could go and be sure to have a bed and food and a job, but the work was quite hard with six days a week and eight to ten hour days...with a day or two off if the inmate went to school and got good grades...with a few holidays spread through the calendar and privileges for good attitude and effort were given even to families living together like "normal."

Then when someone committed a non-violent crime they could have the opportunity to serve their time in this "country club" prison...but the kicker would be that if the work generated income above their supervision costs...they would not only have the opportunity for an education...they wouldn't be a burden to taxpayers...the would be self supporting....probably generating a profit.

These centers wouldn't have to be restricted to law-breakers, but open to citizens who couldn't find jobs in society...what kinds of jobs could these be? More than chain gangs?

Could violent criminals who had a successful stay be gradually moved into a situation like that with the understanding that they only had one opportunity to "get out of jail free?"

Would it save so much property loss for you and me that it would be a tremendous savings in insurance costs and police and emergency room costs?

[Vehn]

[Cyndie]

[Tyler Durden]

I wanted to make sure exactly one person on 2+2 didn't know when the incident occurred.

[Tyler Durden]

I know that but I interpreted the question to mean when was it this year.

[daryn]

wow, you really would have used a gun if you had one on you? you are brave i guess.. i would be too worried about getting killed. if you have no gun, you're just an idiot consumer witnessing a robbery, but as soon as you have a gun, you are now a threat to the criminal, and will be killed if you do not successfully kill him and/or any buddies of his loitering in the area.

[Cyndie]

Little old ladies, hmmm, altogether different! and a violent crime is different too...in the world of Robert Heinlein, citizens were encouraged to carry weapons, and the world was quite a polite place. The point I was making, that I am not sure people noticed, is that non-lethal weapons that stun and subdue, make more sense to me than weapons that kill or maim.

Personally I hate the idea of misdirecting health care facilities to have to try to salvage what is left of a criminal after a fight with the wrong end of a gun...and certainly hate the idea of supporting that invalid for the rest of his life!

Guys...there are answers besides violence and mayhem...that do not trivialize or glorify criminals...Think how many of you smoke grass or do any type of drugs...if you get caught, you get a record that makes it impossible or nearly impossible to get a "real" job...then you get into a situation where things that belong to other people become unobtainable...really through being unlucky enough to get busted for a "bad" law...

Surely you all know someone who was unlucky, usually quite young, and got a record that doesn't go away, but no one really thinks the person is dangerous...our society's poor laws manufacture criminals then punish the rest of us by making us afraid of the new "criminal"

[Jim Kuhn]

Please check out this platform! I am really tired of the same ole' politics! http://www.lp.org/issues/

[David]

Cyndie,
I am sure there is some validity to what you are saying. But, surely you must agree that we each have the right to protect our life and property. When the "bad" guys return again and again bypassing everything you can do to protect your property what do you do? The police have said that they patrol as much as they can, but they can't be there 24/7. I have a right to protect my property at 3:00am. The "bad" guy has no right to be in my building at 3:00am. I have a sign on the back of my building that says "If you get caught breaking in here you will be shot". They have been warned. Texas law is very clear on this issue. I am within my rights to use any force necessary at 3:00am to protect my property. Sad state of affairs I must say.

[Cyndie]

I sure do agree that when someone comes on your property with intent to harm that you have the right...the *obligation* to try to protect your family and yourself...I just wish there were more emphasis on "guns" that didn't kill.

Read through the posts...I have no desire to allow people to swing their arms where my nose begins...I feel the "feel good" rules that have allowed criminals to get away with murder, literally, are terrible.

However, two wrongs just make a bigger wrong...let's re-examine the problem from the beginning and see if there isn't a logical solution that works better than the mess we have!

Right now, the victim and the perpetrator both get punished. and the perpetrator is almost guaranteed to perp again.

[MrGrob]

I was shopping with my mom -- I must have been 6 or 7 -- and I wanted a pack of gum and I put the gum, so I put it on the counter -- somehow I ended up with the gum again -- as we were walking out, the huge fire alarm bell right outside the door started going off right after my mom, seeing as I had the gum, and not realizing I had asked her if it was ok, asked me if I had paid for it...well, being little, I equated the huge bell to my unpaid for gum and I was scared to death (the lady actually rang it up and handed it back to me, it was on the receipt...my mom had to look for it to prove to me that I was not going to jail)...it was bad timing for my mom to ask me that right before the bell started going off...how was I to know that that was not the alarm for the police 'cause I had mistakenly stolen the gum???

I don't steal...even if it is a mistake in my favor, if I know it was a mistake, I let whomever made it know. I don't keep things that are not mine....

[daryn]

ok... disclaimer time.. i really do not intend to offend you in any way with this post.


that said, how old are you? do you have trouble communicating in coherent sentences? i just can't follow this story too well

[MrGrob]

Guns are fine for home defense, but even then, you want a shotgun...load the 1st shot with salt rocks (to sting, not kill, 2nd with normal shot (to kill close range), and 3rd with slug (incase dude is high, this will take him totally out). you can add more salt, or shot, as you wish, even slugs, but a shot gun is much better then a hand gun, cause if you know whomever is in the house is bad, you can just aim down the hall, and usually hit enough to stop a normal person...the rest of the shots are for someone who, even being hit by salt and shot, still won't go down...few, witch is why it is 3rd or further shells. Also, with salt and shot, you don't have to worry about going through your wall and into your neighbors house, maybe hitting them etc....

AND FINALLY -- NO ONE DOESN'T KNOW THE SOUND OF A PUMP-ACTION SHOTGUN...SO EVEN THAT MAY CAUSE THEM TO TAKE OFF!!!

[Cyndie]

Great idea...shot guns are much more sensible...and have been the ranchers gun of choice for a long time, haven't they?

Now, this is a solution you can live with.

[MrGrob]

Sorry, dude. I am over 20, but being at work, I was typing fast as heck and post after spell check cleared. I didn't have time to proof read at all, so I kinda just vomited onto the page /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Sorry so confusing! And no offense taken at all!!! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

I guess I better wait till I have more time to post while at work, else I will probably be wasting everyone's time /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Stay cool! And I love you posts! Very to the point and fun to read! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[daryn]

thanks, i just didn't know if maybe english wasn't your 1st language. keep em coming!

[Lazymeatball]

[ QUOTE ]
How about if prison were a place where anyone could go and be sure to have a bed and food and a job, but the work was quite...

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you put so much thought into typing something this long and still come up with something this stupid? Go back to Russia you commie bitch!




okay, so you're probably not communist and I don't know personaly if you are a bitch or not, but that is what this post conveys.

[Cyndie]

What could possibly be wrong with having the equivalent of soup kitchens to keep people off the streets if they were willing to work? As a choice for non-violent criminals it would be much less expensive than traditional prisons.

It has the added advantage of making it less likely that your property was stolen. Police would have more time to hunt criminals instead of poor people.

That is not communist...communist is saying they were able to work, didn't choose to work...and were still entitled...

The British did something a bit more drastic when they sent criminals to Australia.

I could at least understand the logic of a comment if you had misquoted the context and left out the part about the work being harsh! But your comment makes no sense...and the name calling makes even less sense.

[RollaJ]

So about this free money from party, where do I sign up?