A request to all

[Punker]

Watching two friends in the 200 tourney on party. They are 82 players (top 80 make the $) and one player is stalling desperately with his 1504 stack (blinds 500-1000). He posts the BB leaving himself 504. It is folded to the SB who raises minimum, secure in the knowledge that BB will fold. BB then disconnects-all in and wins the hand, increasing his chips.

I am requesting everyone here email alerts@partypoker.com with the hand # 218989510 for review. This guy should not get away with this.

[HavanaBanana]

I have written them multiple time about their idiotic allowance of allintimeouts in tourneys, last time I did it was yesterday.
[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for contacting our Customer Care team.

We thank you for bringing this matter to our notice. We have forwarded your concerns to our Investigation Team. We have a
Investigations Team which looks into the gameplay of our players. We assure that your concerns will be addressed appropriately.
Also, we have decreased the number of all-ins a player can have from 15 to 8 in a week.

We request you to send us the hand numbers of the games in which this player might have resorted to all-in abuse. We thank you for
your cooperation.

If you have further questions and/or concerns, please contact us via our live chat feature or simply reply to this message.

Sincerely,

Kyle Smith,
Customer Care Team


[/ QUOTE ]

A mindless response as usual, why can't they understand that they promote cheating with their useless policy?

[Drunk Bob]

What did the SB and The BB have?

[pokerwhore]

why play there then?

Thats one thing I like about prima they dont allow all ins in tournys or no limit ring games.

[tiltboy]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, we have decreased the number of all-ins a player can have from 15 to 8 in a week.

[/ QUOTE ]
Great, you can only cheat 8 times a week as opposed to 15. I've been playing at Party a year, frequently on 3 tables at once, and I bet I haven't timed out 8 times in total.

[CrackerZack]

that's really bad. I like how TruePoker handles disconnect people in the BB by folding their hand. Party should do the same.

[ChanceRenter]

I agree Punker! I was actually playing in that tournament at the time. I had lots of chips, but the stalling was driving me nuts so I was looking very much forward to making the money so we could end the ridiculous stalling.

Here's my e-mail to alerts@partypoker.com

**

Hello,

A serious intentional all-in tainted your $200 event this evening. With about 82 players left and 80 scheduled to make the money, player TheSabre02 intentionally disconnected all-in. This player was also stalling to try to creep into the money for the last 30 minutes, another practice of dubious ethics. This player clearly wanted to win at all costs and did not think twice about cheating in order to make the money, which he did thanks to this dirty angle.

I made the money comfortably in this tournament but I think the fair course of action is to disqualify this player and award his prize to the 81st place finisher.

Regards,
ChanceRenter

----- Original Message -----
From: <info@partypoker.com>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 8:26 PM
Subject: Hand History from PartyPoker



Hello ChanceRenter,
You have recently requested your transcript of the game number 218989510.


***** Hand History for Game 218989510 *****
1000/2000 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 1208676) - Sun Oct 26 22:23:42 EST 2003
Table Sunday Special(4505) Table 4 (Real Money) -- Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: weiskaupt (26934)
Seat 2: PatsFan123 (58724)
Seat 3: beverin (13408)
Seat 5: bigslickdady (42517)
Seat 6: gatorfan69 (15634)
Seat 7: sigminator (31314)
Seat 8: TheSabre02 (1504)
Seat 9: OilKing (33257)
Seat 10: garypanico (3528)
sigminator posts small blind (500)
TheSabre02 posts big blind (1000)
** Dealing down cards **
Bosco: like a horse race down to the wire.
OilKing folds.
Bosco: aces or kings would be good now, i wonder if sabre would play them.
p_dot: can you have 4 chips?
garypanico folds.
ThingDo: yes
weiskaupt folds.
PatsFan123 folds.
beverin folds.
TheFarSide: Of course!
bigslickdady folds.
gatorfan69 folds.
AceofTubs: more like a sloth race
sigminator raises (1500) to 2000
Bosco: u can have 1 chips.
fraay: haha
fraay: awesome
dkn9267: at 82.........2 more spots till ya get paid ......wow
Bosco: has to beat snap and makai bascially.
ThingDo: blinds are going to get to these two other short stacks before they get to him
TheSabre02 could not respond in time.(disconnected)
TheSabre02 calls all-In.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 6c, 2s, Ks ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 6s ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 3h ]
Creating Main Pot with $2000 with TheSabre02
** Summary **
Main Pot: 2000 | Side Pot 1: 1000
Board: [ 6c 2s Ks 6s 3h ]
weiskaupt balance 26934, didn't bet (folded)
PatsFan123 balance 58724, didn't bet (folded)
beverin balance 13408, didn't bet (folded)
bigslickdady balance 42517, didn't bet (folded)
gatorfan69 balance 15634, didn't bet (folded)
sigminator balance 30314, bet 2000, collected 1000, lost -1000 [ 8s 2h ] [ two pairs, sixes and twos -- Ks,6c,6s,2h,2s ]
TheSabre02 balance 2504, bet 1000, collected 2000, net +1000 [ 9s Kh ] [ two pairs, kings and sixes -- Kh,Ks,9s,6c,6s ]
OilKing balance 33257, didn't bet (folded)
garypanico balance 3528, didn't bet (folded)

For detailed handhistory, click here

[Punker]

Dear xx,

We have investigated the time out on account TheSabre02 in game # 218989510.

We agree that timing out all-in under these circumstances appears suspicious. In addition to this, we monitor players' actions with respect to collusion and all-in abuse. We also review and collect complaints filed by other players, such as yourself, regarding "suspicious" activities committed by some players and keep all of them logged on the notes section of the corresponding account.

A player that suffers a repeat occurrence faces being permanently banned from the games, as the integrity of our card room is of paramount importance to us.

We have looked into TheSabre02 records and collected recent hands in which he had been disconnected, and we do see a pattern that could make for a case of intentional all-in abuse. We take this matter very seriously and have not only warned the player in question, but have also taken appropriate action regarding his all-in quota.

We appreciate you reporting of these situations, as keeping the games honest is our highest priority.

We hope that you appreciate our efforts to be an honest and fair Card Room in the best interest of our games and the safety of our players money. If you need any clarifications or have any questions or concerns,
please feel free to contact us. We will be more than happy to assist you.

If you have any further questions, comments or concerns, please contact us at alerts@PartyPoker.com and we will be more than glad to assist you.

Best regards,

Ben Anderson
Investigations Team


**********

ok fair enough response. I believe they looked into it (perhaps they were deluged by email complaining about this all in and decided smoke, fire, etc, or whatever). However, the action taken is not satisfactory. I responded as follows:

I appreciate your investigation and am unsurprised to
find this user has a history of all in usage, but in
this case, the all in abuse was a clear factor in this
user winning over $500 by getting through the blinds
an extra time late in a tournament. This was extremely
unfair to the players who missed out on the money
while playing fairly.

In a ring game, your actions would be sufficient for
me, as the most it can cost is one pot, and even then
of questionable value. However, in this case, you have
said this user has a history of questionable all ins,
and his actions here deprived another totally honest
player of a nice win of over $500.

This player should be disqualified from the tournament
and his winnings passed to whoever finished 81st in
this tournament. I cannot say how strongly I feel
about this, and the fact that you should not allow all
in protection in tournament play to begin with. I have
played the weekly $200+15 event twice in the past
three weeks, but no longer feel I can play in this
event if this is the extent of your sanction against
this player.

Please advise as to whether or not TheSabre02 will be
disqualified and his winnings transferred to the 81st
place finisher.

[Stagemusic]

Punker. Excellent response to Party. What is really sad is, if Sabre had any cajones at all and just called the bet, he would have moved up a couple spots since he won the damn hand outright. /images/graemlins/grin.gif BTW, there is absolutely NO WAY that Party disqualifies him and transfers the money to anyone. Live assists during tourney play (like PokerStars) could help with this at the time it happened but there is no way they are going to do something after the fact. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Hotchile]

Ok, I got caught going all-in on purpose. Can't do it 15 times anymore. Now I only have 8. Hmmmmmmmmmmm

That means that I can jam 12.5% of my chips 8 times throughout the course of the tournament. Then, if I should happen to get played back at, I simply disconnect and let fate run it's course. Of course, there will be all those times that I have a really big hand and don't disconnect that will help me amass chips.

Oh yeah, who dares playing back at me? If I have a monster, I will take them all in, if I don't, I'll pull the plug.

GO AHEAD, BLUFF ME YOU FOOLS!!!!!!

Come on Party, get it together. How many emails of this nature do you need to get before you realize that allowing all-ins in tournament play is totally detrimental to the integrity of your games which you say you take so seriously.

HC

[Cyndie]

For starters, you and all the two plus twoers and 99% of poker players would agree that the all in was intentional...

However, Party should not be giving out information telling you and the world that they found his allin pattern abusive! That is not public information that the site should tell players...their response should only be that the matter had been resolved, and anyone who had abused allins would not have allin privileges at all in thefuture.

The fact that such a suspicious all in occured should cost him the pot winnings, but should it take the chips away that he had left?

I guess what I am saying is that given Party's stupid rule...the consequences you ask for are not "fair." Party is allowing this...until they disallow it, it doesn't seem right to have consequences you request.

Please, I agree with you, and I have been having connection problems lately...Allins in tourneys are no good! Allins in no limit are no good!

[Hotchile]

[However, Party should not be giving out information telling you and the world that they found his allin pattern abusive! That is not public information that the site should tell players...their response should only be that the matter had been resolved, and anyone who had abused allins would not have allin privileges at all in the future]

Two ways to look at this. One, by stating that the player has abused in the past, anything less than disqualification is a travesty. Two, by not disclosing previous abuse patterns, the site has more flexibility in dealing with the issue.

What do others think? If a player has a history of abuse, what do you think is appropriate?

HC

[NoChance]

This "all in abuse" happened to me twice this weekend, two different players. In both cases, there were three people seeing the river and both were facing two bets to call. Both claim they disconnected but were back almost instantly to play the next hand.

I simply typed, "I have added notes to your name that I suspect you of all in abuse and have included the hand number for review. Do not try this again or you may lose your account when I turn you in." In both cases they simply called me every name they could think of and then left the table within one round.

[Punker]

Their next response:

Dear xx,

We understand that TheSabre02 did not play the game play at the Multi
Table Qualifier, Sunday Special Qualifier in the right ethics.

We have received complaints from other players about this issue. We
have investigated into this and TheSabre02 has been convicted of All-In
Abuse. We have restricted his all-in's and we will be confiscating the
amount of $567.7 (The Winnings from the MTCT) and will be awarding this
amount to the 81st Player.

We are in the process of making changes to the way All-In's are being
used in Tournaments. We thank you for bringing this to our notice. We
appreciate the efforts you have taken to bring this to our attention.

If you have any further questions, comments or concerns, please contact
us at alerts@PartyPoker.com and we will be more than glad to assist
you.

Best regards,

Ben Anderson
Investigations Team

With all the negatives about Party here, its only fair to give them a thumbs up when they do the right thing. Congrats to whoever ended up winning 81st place money.

[Hotchile]

On one hand, I am glad that the correct decision was eventually made and the proper action taken. On the other hand, I am disappointed that "numerous other emails" were required to do what should have been done in the first place.

Pokersites must focus on the integrity of the games first and foremost and should not be responding to questions of integrity based on political posturing.

In regards to "making changes to the way all-ins are used", I don't know what that means. It should mean, "we are eliminating all-ins during tournament play". Here's hoping.

HC

[Lebronomania]

Great job, Punker. Also, I'm impressed that Party had the balls.

[thehip75]

I think it is amazing to see that Party Poker actually took action on a client complaint.

Party, you have restored my faith in your customer support (but you are still on a short leash).

[HavanaBanana]

[ QUOTE ]
However, Party should not be giving out information telling you and the world that they found his allin pattern abusive! That is not public information that the site should tell players...their response should only be that the matter had been resolved, and anyone who had abused allins would not have allin privileges at all in thefuture.

The fact that such a suspicious all in occured should cost him the pot winnings, but should it take the chips away that he had left?


[/ QUOTE ]

World Championchip track and field, many US athleets will be convicted of doping, they will lose medals and get banned from the sport, according to you this information should not be disclosed.

That is not public information that the site should tell players

Oh, like your policy on prop players?
In both cases you are wrong, but we are getting used to that arent we?

What is sad about you is that one can fool some of the people some of the time, but happily you cant fool all of the people all of the time.

I've been contemplating picking your site apart piece by piece, but haven't found it worth it yet, but to say that my opinion of what you do is like you are a wort on onlinepokers a$$ is pretty close to the truth.

Dang, feel overtaken by someones Spirit! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Cyndie]

Certainly not Granny's spirit, since she would never say

[ QUOTE ]
many US athleets will be convicted of doping

[/ QUOTE ]

When athletes around the world have been accused, and often tried in public, with little notice made if they are not proven guilty of anything...

or gone into some thing with her mind already made up

[ QUOTE ]
picking your site apart piece by piece, but haven't found it worth it yet,

[/ QUOTE ]

or made incorrect assumptions about my " policy on prop players " Since my policy and the site policies are not the same.

But please do not pretend to be Granny. I know Granny's opinions of me...they are in the most recent posts about me in this forum, and in numerous emails. Your hatred is not flattering to you.

[HavanaBanana]

[ QUOTE ]
Since my policy and the site policies are not the same.


[/ QUOTE ]

I rest my Case

PS. Where did you get it from that I am pretending to be granny?

You sick [censored]

[Cyndie]

and if that were the case I was disagreeing with you.

I must also admit that your logic about what is derived by my statement that site policies regarding props and my own site's policies are different. What case are you resting on that?

Almost all of the people here were not opposed to getting money back from the sites for being good customers who played a lot, and every thread about prop players ends up being a discussion about how they are convenient to have around and aren't any threat to a good player.

[Batman]

[ QUOTE ]
[However, Party should not be giving out information telling you and the world that they found his allin pattern abusive! That is not public information that the site should tell players...their response should only be that the matter had been resolved, and anyone who had abused allins would not have allin privileges at all in the future]



[/ QUOTE ]

Party has a right to tell everyone what happened. When a person plays in a public online cardroom, he is not simply at home anymore. He waived his expectation of privacy. This news is relevant to everyone. Party did not give out anybody's first and last names. And truth is an absolute defense against libel.

[HavanaBanana]

[ QUOTE ]
Almost all of the people here were not opposed to getting money back from the sites for being good customers who played a lot , and every thread about prop players ends up being a discussion about how they are convenient to have around and aren't any threat to a good player.


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I would Love to see the players getting paid for being good customers, what I mind is leaches like you getting a part of it

I have nothing against prop payers as long as they are divulged as such so one can chose to play in their games or not.

[Batman]

Great job Party. This guy got what he deserved. In Las Vegas, if you get caught cheating, the casino's don't just "take back the pot or money you unfairly won" (like Cyndie suggests). You'll get arrested, become a convicted felon, permanently barred from owning a firearm, and permanently banned from playing in casinos. Party could've permanently banned him.
Cheating is a serious matter. People know about this up front, and if they choose to cheat, they must accept the consequences. Party was actually a bit lenient.
If a college student gets caught cheating or plagiarizing, he doesn't just fail for that course. He can get expelled and all of his credits revoked. A baseball player who wagers on baseball gets banned for life. A person who exits or enters the United States with more than $10,000 without declaring it, and if gets discovered, will lose the entire amount. Just some examples about the real world.

[Cyndie]

I realize it is not popular to defend the rights of someone who is very probably guilty, but it happened to me once that I timed out in a suspicious situation...and many at the table were thinking I timed out intentionally.

That feeling wasn't fun. I knew it was an accident...in fact I thought I was ahead on the turn because I had top pair, and the person who slowplayed his AA didn't bother to tell me until after I rivered him.

The point is that the site isn't in the US where people are used to being innocent until proven guilty, but IMO, the site has a responsibility to determine whether a pattern of abuse is shown, and not to discuss the patterns with the players who are supposed to report all suspicious all ins...but not be judge and jury at the table!

If the guy has a pattern of abuse, the site should bar him, or at least eliminate any all in privileges if it is questionable, or he hasn't been notified of previous accusations.

I would love the sites to cooperate and share information with each other about known abusers, but they maintain that the information is private then, I believe. What makes it right to tell the person who just did his job of reporting a suspicious situation?

You are all operating on the assumption that what looks like abuse is abuse...I prefer to see the ability to abuse removed. If he chooses to continue to play, it would certainly still be a situation to be watched for any signs of unethical or illegal behavior.

Maybe it is clearer that it is easier to watch an enemy that you know than one you can't identify.

[Cyndie]

Man, I hope you are never accused of something you didn't do!

Didn't you ever hear the idea that letting some people go without being punished is considered preferable to having policies that hang an innocent person?

What is going on here, am I the only one who remembers any civics lessons?

[Cyndie]

If you have a better way of getting players rewarded than I have suggested, that works within the system the sites set up...or you are going to change the system, then you have at least a leg to stand on...but I don't see you working to do anything but complain about the people who are!

I haven't dragged anyone into any dens of iniquity, or forced them to sign up at a banner of my choice...I developed a plan a long time ago that would take the money the sites were gladly giving and giving half of it back to players. I worked a long time getting a site to get it all set up...and when the program was disallowed, I was very upset...not just because it cost me money.


Now, it is more frustrating because they are working even harder to make sure that marketing agents are not allowed to give money back to players. I have discussed at length the advantages to players for having affiliate arrangements not only to have secondary income to offset bad runs, but also because of tax laws in this country.

The fact that you still choose to vilify me is totally beyond my control.

As far as props are concerned, go to my site and see how secretive we are...the sites are concerned and we go along with their requests. Nothing unethical is happening that doesn't happen every day when a player logs off empire and into party or any other skin name and changes screen names when they do.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
Man, I hope you are never accused of something you didn't do!

Didn't you ever hear the idea that letting some people go without being punished is considered preferable to having policies that hang an innocent person?

What is going on here, am I the only one who remembers any civics lessons?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are incorrect, sacrificing a few innoncent people to protect many more is preferable.

[Cyndie]

so don't let him have allins and watch him like a hawk...do you think he is going to quit playing, or just get another name and cheat better next time?

[Batman]

This person isn't being tried in a criminal court, so Party does not need to prove he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. This appeared to be all-in abuse and there is prima facie evidence that "sabre" is guilty. Party did an investigation and found a pattern (get it? a pattern?) of all-in abuse.
And Party has a right to tell the world what happened. They own the information and they can tell us. People have the right to know about important incidents in their poker room. If people are dumb enough to cheat, that information will be public domain. What is "right" and what isn't is merely a matter of opinion. When Party serves the interests of its honest customers, that overrides any hypersensitive feelings you have. If you are too easily offended, that's your problem.

[HavanaBanana]

You play poker yourself, imagine that you are on a table where you have one of your affilliates playing, you get into a situation where you have the following choice, win 2 bets from player A or 1 bet from player A and player B, this is quite a common occurance when you have the nuts on river.
Player B is your affilliate who it is benificial to you to have win.

I trust you as far as I can Throw you, espechially since how you used to come here on different names pretending to be someone else promoting your site.

[MrGrob]

I don't play tourneys at all, especially on line for this reason, but hearing about this makes me mad for moral reasons anyway. The fact that party did the RIGHT THING for a change is TOTALLY AWESOME!!! I would rather lose money BECAUSE OF MY CABLE COMPANY if I get disco'ed, then have random people steal from me abusing all-ins! Way to go Party! Good call!

[Jim Kuhn]

Punker,

Great job!! Thank you for helping all Party Poker players but especially on behalf of the 81st place player! I appreciate your efforts!