Nobody likes how I play 66.

[James282]

Party Poker, 6 handed 10-20, loose game and very aggressive.

I am dealt 66 in the cutoff. UTG folds, guy to my right raises(as always), I cold-call, SB calls, BB calls. The flop comes 8 5 4 rainbow. SB checks, BB bets, guy to my right raises again, and here is where everybody hates my play. I cold-call again. SB delays, and folds, BB just calls. Turn comes a 2 that completes the rainbow. BB now just checks, our favorite raiser bets again, I call with what I believe are 6 crystalline outs, and BB calls. River comes, and it is my third mystical 6. BB checks, maniac raiser checks, I bet, BB calls, Maniac folds.

I turn it over, and three players at the table start calling me a fish. I think about explaining my play, but they begin to criticize it before I even begin. SB, who I would describe as weak-tight, but definitely knowledgable, says my flop call was terrible, and that he knew his 10 8 was beaten. The 2 other players in the hand also said I was a huge fish, etc. To be honest I was not too worried about this play. I thought that I should have considered 3-betting the flop, honestly. I remember back to the thread where everyone wanted the guy to raise with A5 on a board of 8 5 3, and I thought that this guy might have read the same thread(He frequently raises with Axs). My turn call was obviously correct..but what do you big players think...was the flop call fishy or smart?
-James

[TheLoser]

I don't like to cold call with this hand pre flop, I am either 3 betting or folding depending on what the game is playing like. On the flop I am 3 betting on the turn your call isn't "clearly correct" as you aren't sure if a 6 is an out or not. River play is fine. You called on 3 of the 4 streets in this hand which is not the right way to play very many hands.

[James282]

You're right that I probably should have raised the flop. On the turn, I was pretty sure that the 6 was an out. The way the hand was bet, the only way the 6 wasnt an out was if somebody had 77..unless the preflop raiser had 67 or 78 or something, which I believed to be highly unlikely.
Thanks,
James

[Dynasty]

If the guy to your right is always raising, then you've got an easy 3-bet pre-flop as well as on the flop.

You did play this like a passive fish. Your opponents at the table analyzed it like weak-tight fish.

[Aaron Lovi]

I don't think small pocket pairs are as valuable as you think in this sort of game. If your 3-bet preflop won't isolate the raiser, you should probably fold.

[James282]

Yeah. After thinking about it for a bit, I believe that I played it too passively. A passive fish? Hmm, maybe /images/graemlins/smile.gif I think that the way they would have played it was worse than the way I did, though! As I said in a previous post, I am trying to move in the direction of not being weak in hands like this, and if the spectrum of weakness in this hand goes:

fold
call
raise

at least I am moving through the middle /images/graemlins/smile.gif And before anyone jumps on me, I realize that raising or folding is the best play in most situations..and I don't just call as much as this post my have you believe! I suppose these games at 10/20 are still so good that I can get away with being somewhere in the middle of the aggressiveness scale, although being more aggressive in certain spots would increase my profits, I am sure.

Thanks for the honest, albeit a little harsh, analysis /images/graemlins/smile.gif 3-betting both preflop and the flop seems to be the correct play here, but at least I know I shouldn't have folded the flop like these gentlemen told me too!
-James

[Gabe]

Usually, I’d reraise the flop. If you think a three bet would isolate the maniac you could three bet here. If the game is real loose calling preflop is okay, so the maniac will bet the flop.

[Diplomat]

They were probably calling you a fish because you smell like canned salmon. Re-raise pre-flop or fold. I'd re-raise most of the time against a cannon like this.

-Diplomat

[tpir90036]

i understand 3-betting to isolate the loose raiser and not cold-calling...but even with a pair as low as 6's? i realize it is 6-handed and all....but there must be something i am missing.

[andyfox]

"SB, who I would describe as weak-tight, but definitely knowledgable, says my flop call was terrible, and that he knew his 10 8 was beaten."

Knowledgable players don't call a pre-flop raise with T-8 and then check a flop of 8-5-4.

[cero_z]

Hi James,
[ QUOTE ]
on the turn your call isn't "clearly correct" as you aren't sure if a 6 is an out or not.

[/ QUOTE ]
He has a double belly-buster on the turn, with 4 suits. So he has 8 outs to a straight, making it at least an easy call (if not a raise). His opponents sound like typical Party Poker grumpy fish.

[johnd]

Three bet the flop with a maniac with a small to medium pocket is the way to go and with that flop I would raise the flop as well. As long as u take down your BB an hour in 10-20 who cares what the other players think. Having a few players on party in 10-20 that thinks you're an idiot can be a good thing.

[DocHollyday]

I don't think you need any more advise on the play. The other guys answered that question more than properly. I jsut want to mention about the players on the table, who were bitching at you.

Despite the fact, that they just do it because they are pissed off I really welcome when they tell me, how idiotic my play is, because they then believe I'm a bad player and this can only be to my advantage (Ok, may be Im a bad player, but my winnings tel me opposite). I don't get offended by it, and if this bothers you, just click away the chatbox.

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
You're right that I probably should have raised the flop. On the turn, I was pretty sure that the 6 was an out. The way the hand was bet, the only way the 6 wasnt an out was if somebody had 77..unless the preflop raiser had 67 or 78 or something, which I believed to be highly unlikely.
Thanks,
James

[/ QUOTE ]

why is it one player is playing with T8, but you think 67 or 78 is unlikely?

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

I am dealt 66 in the cutoff. UTG folds, guy to my right raises(as always), I cold-call, SB calls, BB calls. The flop comes 8 5 4 rainbow. SB checks, BB bets, guy to my right raises again, and here is where everybody hates my play. I cold-call again. SB delays, and folds, BB just calls.

Ignoring the preflop call for a minute, lets look at your flop play.

There are 8 small bets in the flop preflop (UTG+1, you, SB and BB all paid 2 SBs each to see the flop). On the flop it is bet and raised to you, 11 SBs and 2 to call, giving you 5.5 to 1 pot odds. (The 6 is a questionable out, as anyone with a 7 beats you.) Assuming the flop better will call, you're at 6 to 1.

Hitting a gutshot is 12-1 odds, so you are way, way short of being able to make this call. Given the short-handedness, you can't make it up in implied odds. Even if you include the other two 6s as outs its over 8-1 odds to improve. Still way too short to play on.

And now I hope it becomes clearer as to why your preflop play was so bad. You called two bets cold in a short handed game, with a vulnerable hand that is a longshot to improve, with no pot odds to help you draw out. Also remember calling two cold in a short-handed game trying to hit a set is not a +EV play as your implied odds are toast.

The only way to play this hand is a reraise to isolate, or fold. If you don't feel your reraise will get it heads up the majority of the time, FOLD! Save your chips to fight Mr Aggressive with a better situation.

-Scott

[WillMagic]

Six-handed is a lot different than a full game in regard to pairs. When you raise, you'll probably get the pot heads up and in position, and you'll most likely be a small favorite against overcards. You force him to make a hand on the flop. Add to this the fact that a lot of times maniacs in six-handed will raise with ace-little, and you could be wayyy ahead.

[James282]

Hi SoBeDude, I obviously didn't know the guy was playing with 10 8. I gave my opponents(besides the maniac) too much credit, which was one of my mistakes in the hand. As far as the flop call being terrible, a raise probably would have been a lot better(I have already acknowledged this). As previously stated, I called with the idea that my hand might be good, and I believed that the combination of implied odds, possibility of my hand being good, and simple pot odds were enough to justify staying in this hand. A raise would have been better, and that is pretty clear to me now!

To andy: Yeah, I over-estimated him in this situation. I imagine his T8 was suited and that he was frustrated because so much raising was going on preflop. When I call him knowledgable, I mean that I did not see him make many post-flop mistakes, and that he seemed to at least understand basic pot odds. Maybe that doesn't make him knowledgable for 2+2, but it certainly does for Party Poker 10-20.
-James

[SoBeDude]

As previously stated, I called with the idea that my hand might be good, and I believed that the combination of implied odds, possibility of my hand being good, and simple pot odds were enough to justify staying in this hand.

Do you now realize how this is incorect?

A raise would have been better, and that is pretty clear to me now!

If you're referring to a raise on the flop I disagree. I think its a clear fold.

-Scott

[tpir90036]

thanks for the response. so would you still make this move with 66 in a full game? i could see doing it with 99 (and up obviously) but the chance of someone butting in and not letting you isolate goes up and would seem to make your pair a decreasing favorite. is my thinking along the correct lines?

[WillMagic]

Your thinking is exactly right.

If you get even one more caller, you are in serious trouble. Even if you randomly catch a flop that hits no one, it's going to be difficult to figure that out and play aggressively.

Although, if we are looking at a ten-handed game, and a maniac raises from late position and I'm in the cut-off, I'll re-raise him for the same reasons as before - I'll almost certainly have the button in a heads up pot being the favorite. All things you want /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Six-handed is a totally different animal than ten-handed. In fact, a good way to approach it is if you were playing ten-handed and the first four players always folded. Treat an EP raise in six-handed as a MP raise otherwise, etc. Be much more liberal in your three-betting, and just be more aggressive in general.

Will

[WillMagic]

I just wanted to say that I did not cut and paste kelvin474's idea for short-handed play - it actually came to me /images/graemlins/smile.gif

It's a good idea though.

Will