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View Full Version : bad fold?


09-14-2001, 01:06 PM
i have 8s9s in 2nd UTG


i limp,


3 limp behind


sb calls


bb checks


FLOP:


7c-9c-Ts


sb bets, bb raises,i 3-bet, MP calls 3 cold!!! couple more folds, sb folds, bb calls.


TURN:


7c-9c-Ts--6c


bb check,i check, mp bets,bb folds, i call


RIVER:


7c-9c-Ts--6c--Kc


i check and fold...


i would have called for the possibility he had an 8 if the river wasnt a club... should i have anyway???

09-14-2001, 02:31 PM
If MP is not a very tricky player, then I think you could fold on the turn and save two big bets. When he cold calls 3 bets, probably 9 out of 10 times he's on the flush draw...

09-14-2001, 02:52 PM
Usually I'm going to fold UTG with this kind of hand, but it's probably not a big deal whether you call, fold, or even raise with it (as long as you don't raise with hands like this very often UTG).


I think most players highly overrate this kind of hand, where they flop an open ended straight draw using only one of their hole cards. You have second pair and a backdoor flush draw with yours, which makes it a much stronger draw, but it is still only a draw. I would want to keep other players in the pot to improve the odds on my draw, rather than shut them out on a flop where I have zero chance of stealing the pot before the river, due to the HUGE number of draws your opponents will play to the end given this super coordinated flop.


I don't understand why you would check the turn after you make your hand. Sure, the club is scary and MP called 3 bets colds on the flop, but I am still going to bet and see if someone raises me. If I don't get raised, then it is almost certain that noone made the flush, and I can safely bet the river if a blank comes. If MP raises you and he is an unaggressive player, I think you can lay the hand down. If MP is the tough kind of opponent who would raise the turn with a set here, then I am going to have to call his raise and hope he checks behind me on the river, all the while cursing myself for playing an 89s out of position.


After you check call the turn and another club hits on the river, you can only hope to tie or catch a bluff. Your play depends entirely on how you read MP. If he is generally unagressive, you can check fold. If he is aggressive enough to bluff a set or straight more than 1 time in 10 (your current pot odds), you are best off check calling. If he is tight enough to fold a straight (tie) to a bet, then you should bet.

09-15-2001, 07:41 AM
"i would have called for the possibility he had an 8 if the river wasnt a club..."


For your plan to be a good one, MP would have to have exactly one club. I suppose he could have flopped a set of tens and had one club, or flopped a straight and had one club. But to check-fold into that sort of precision, after calling on the turn, doesn't make sense. In other words, it's unlikely that the club on the river changed the lead on this hand.


I try to decide on the turn how much I'm willing to commit. No bets? One? Two? If none, then check-fold on the turn. If one, then bet the turn and fold if raised. If two, then check-call both streets no matter what comes on the river.


I don't think check-folding the turn would have been that bad. If it's wrong, it's only wrong by half the pot, looks like. Tough hand. Made tough, again, by being out of position. I save a lot of money in tylenol by not opening with these hands up front.


Tommy

09-15-2001, 10:32 AM
I don't understand why you would check the turn after you make your hand.


me either, that was my biggest mistake. i just wanted to get to the river cheaply, cuz i didnt think there was much chance i was ahead. maybe i shouldve called on the river like i originally planned.


i dont believe this player would bluff the river here, he would check it down without the flush...


the only point where this breaks down is that by the way i played the hand i probably dont have a flush and he may bet the straight for value... an important thing is he cant be expecting me to fold here .


but if he doesnt have a club he would be afraid of me having a singleton club.


thanks for the feedback...

09-15-2001, 10:43 AM
>>"i would have called for the possibility he had an 8 if the river wasnt a club..."


>"For your plan to be a good one, MP would have to have exactly one club. I suppose he could have flopped a set of tens and had one club, or flopped a straight and had one club. But to check-fold into that sort of precision, after calling on the turn, doesn't make sense. In other words, it's unlikely that the club on the river changed the lead on this hand."


well, the reason i say that is that the club on the river makes it much less likely he would bet the straight making it much harder to call.. this player is tight, but straight-forward.

09-15-2001, 10:48 AM
yeah,i agree, i shouldve either folded the turn or shown down

09-16-2001, 05:54 PM
I believe you were prob beat at the turn, although he maybe was only holding cards as low as a 4fl at this point. While I beleive there is no good reason to throw more money in when you are sure that you are beaten at the river, why fold for one more bet when you could gave just called? (I know this is a contradictory statement)You have gone this far and could still win or tie, although still a slim chance. Although you could have played slower on earlier streets or even folded much earlier, why give up the pot at this point for one single large bet. Your bad play earlier in the hand may have only been made worse by folding at this late point. Remember: sometimes you got to pay to see em. Of course that is only my opinion.


How do others view this?

09-16-2001, 09:58 PM
Yes. That one more call only cost you a single bet, but if your straight was good, it cost you a tremendous amount. Always call on the end when you don't fear a raise, the pot is decent size and you have almost any chance of taking the pot.