Opinions Sought on Gaming Club Policy

[Spartacus]

I was recently involved in a hotly contested pot. There was heavy action preflop right through the river. I won the pot holding J /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif with a final board of A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
The thing is I did not put the last bet in. I called putting my contester on AK or AA. He 3 bet preflop with position on me, smooth called on the flop, and we capped it on the turn. I bet the river he raised and I just called.
Of course I was happy to take down the pot, but his hand was never shown!

I called him, how can they not show his hand? I complained and the table responded that losing hands are automatically mucked. I think this is very wrong! I emailed support about my concern. Though their response was prompt, I was dissatisfied with just getting the hand history.
I feel that a called hand MUST be shown!
Opinons?

[Inthacup]

Agreed. They should show his hand.

[lorinda]

An absolute must.

Not only are you entitled to see it, but with online play seeing what people had is one of our few collusion defences.

Lori

[Cyndie]

Wow...that is a bad ruling! IMO, not only should it have been shown at the table, but all *called* mucked cards should be shown in the HH's whether shown at the table or not!

I liken it to the fact that at the table you *may* ask to see any called cards, in fact at some cardrooms, players who were not at the showdown can ask to see called losing cards. It has actually come up in a jackpot situation when a player claimed to be losing with a hand that was a jackpot...he was fibbing of course, but the table wanted to see, and the cards were called.

Anyway, asking to see muckable cards happens with about the same frequency I would suspect as players actually looking at HH!

[Adde]

I feel that a called hand MUST be shown!

I strongly agree on that!

[pokerwhore]

A losing hand dont have to be shown in poker. If you go to any casino in the world and a player shows a hand you cant beat in the showdown you have the right to muck your hand.

I never show my hand in live games when I know I cant beat the hand thats shown so why should I show it online? Actually I think its wrong players can go into hand history's to see what you had also doesnt make sense.

[lorinda]

A losing hand dont have to be shown in poker. If you go to any casino in the world and a player shows a hand you cant beat in the showdown you have the right to muck your hand

Don't come to England.

You have the right to see any hand at showdown in any tourney game, and in any game where you have called. (Remember, call means "Call, and SEE you".

The reason it is very rare to actually be asked is because "Cards speak" and if they turn over a winner, you would lose the pot.

Lori

[pokerwhore]

im just stating though, I play in east chicago alot at the harrahs and if someone turns over cards I cant beat I throw my cards into all the dead cards I never show.

Played in vegas at few casinos also never had to show my losing hands.

[Spartacus]

I think you are missing the point here PW, I called him. Because he acted after me, his hand hit the muck. He put in the last bet therefore his hand should be shown first.

[RiverMel]

It's NORML, not NORMAL.

[rusty JEDI]

For once i actually have to agree with pokerwhore on this one. The rule is not there so you can see the hand for info in casinos. The rule is there as a measure against collusion.

There is an older but very good thread on this here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=genpok&Number=280688&Forum =All_Forums&Words=IWTSTH&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Sea rchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=1year&Main=278693&Search=tr ue#Post280688)

[Pensive Gerbil]

I have mixed feelings on this issue. One advantage of their system is that it sometimes spares fish from embarassment, thereby encouraging looser and stupider play. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif Therefore, I might not mind their showdown procedure if it were more convenient to obtain hand histories showing the starting hands of all players involved in the showdown.

-PG

[TruePoker CEO]

Showing called hands on the river was a policy area we dealt with at our site .... We strive to allow for as close an experience to real live games as we can.

In the live games we know of, a player called down at the river may muck his hand face down, but other player(s) can request to see all called hands. (There is some variance as to whether everyone at the table has the right to request a showing and when you must ask.) This common practice would mitigate against a blanket "show all called hands" policy.

Truepoker allows players to specifically muck called hands, BUT the other players then may easily request a hand history, which shows called hands which were mucked.

We think this is fair ... both players' rights are protected and each must act affirnatively to exercise his/her right.

(Personally, I would also think there should be a requirement for a prompt public request, so that everyone knows who asked .... a bit of information in and of itself.)

Truepoker CEO

[Inthacup]

A losing hand dont have to be shown in poker. If you go to any casino in the world and a player shows a hand you cant beat in the showdown you have the right to muck your hand.


I'm sorry, but you're wrong in this case. In almost every casino in the world, the person who puts the last bet or raise(not call) in the pot is the person who should showdown first. For instance, if you and I are playing HU and you bet, I raise and you call, I am obligated to show my hand first. If you show your hand before I do and yours beats mine, I can throw my cards in the muck. If you ask to see my cards, you have that option.


Online, the person to make the last bet or raise in the hand should showdown first.


Cup

[pokerwhore]

You did not read correctly what I said, ( If you cant beat the hand that is shown you dont have to show your hand) Correct the person who raises is the one who is suppose to show his cards first! All I said is if you cant beat the hand that is shown you dont have to show your cards and you can muck.

[Inthacup]

Point taken, but you're still not focusing on the most important part. Spartacus' opponent here should have shown first and that's all there is to it.

[pokerwhore]

yes I know that, but I was just pointing out the fact that all cards on showdown dont have to be shown. That you should be able to muck your losing hand at certain points but many players here probally didnt know that.

[rusty JEDI]

Point taken, but you're still not focusing on the most important part. Spartacus' opponent here should have shown first and that's all there is to it.

I also didnt pay attention to this part. But i will stick by it that if the winner shows and he has you beat that you have a right to muck your cards in a casino unless someone suspects colusion, as is pointed out in the link i gave in my first reply.

[Jim Kuhn]

You don't have to show your hand. However, Any player at the showdown can request to see your hand. Some poker rooms allow any active player at the table to request a called hand be shown. This is true for every poker room I have played.

[rusty JEDI]

You don't have to show your hand. However, Any player at the showdown can request to see your hand. Some poker rooms allow any active player at the table to request a called hand be shown. This is true for every poker room I have played.


I dont think anyone disputes the fact that you are allowed to ask to see the hand. But the purpose of the rule is not so you can see the hand to gain info on how that player plays.

[Cyndie]

it should be? it is hard enough getting reads on players online.

[Gaming Club]

[ QUOTE ]

I called him, how can they not show his hand? I complained and the table responded that losing hands are automatically mucked. I think this is very wrong! I emailed support about my concern. Though their response was prompt, I was dissatisfied with just getting the hand history.
I feel that a called hand MUST be shown!
Opinons?


[/ QUOTE ]
We're told that this policy was implemented originally by Prima to speed up game play. They're aware tho that many players don't like it, so reverting to standard practice is being worked on.

In the meantime, you can use PlayCheck to see the called hand (not very convenient we know, but bear with us and it will get sorted out)

[Cyndie]

The main point here is to be able to see them in hand histories for sure...the table is probably not *as* important, but rarely slows things down as once the betting hand is shown, the rest of the players usually have auto muck losing hands turned on (if available) and things move right along.