Wasted words: "late position"

Two guys in the clubhouse:


"What did you use on that short par three?"


"I used an iron."


"???"


Early, middle, and late seats. Even in a 10-handed game, one of those groups is only two seats. (8 = 3+3+2.)


The difference between UTG and one-left-of-UTG is less significant than the difference between the cutoff and the button. That we use the word "cutoff" is evidence that this distinction is useful when talking about hands.


Is two-off-the-button a "late position?" IMO, no. It makes sense to me to use the 2 of 3+3+2 where the info matters most, the very latest seats, the cutoff and the button. And because the difference between the cutoff and the button is significant in preflop discussion, it doesn't make sense to say, "late position," when, with half as many words, we can specifiy WHICH late position we have in mind.


"I had J-9 and raised from late position."


Well, which iron did you use? Which position were you in? Spit it out, man. Cutoff or button? It often matters, and it doesn't save space to not say which.


I'm all for not bothering to mention info that is irrelevant and that may be distracting by it's mere mention. But I don't think the action of a "late position" player can ever be so irrelevant or distracting that it doesn't aid clarity in the long run to just say "cutoff" or "button" when detailing the preflop action, especially when the hero is in one of those seats.


Let's say we're not talking about a hand, but rather, about a situation. "What would you do with such and such in late position before the flop if the action is such and such?"


This is when it really matters, cutoff or button. This is when "late position" is insufficient info, serving only to muddy the waters. That's why "late position" is another word/phrase I never use in recaps that include the preflop play.


Tommy

Maybe we just need catchier names:


SB

BB

UTG

UTG+1 could be "On Deck"

and UTG+2 could be "In the Hole"

and UTG+3 could be "Batting Cleanup"

Three off the button could be "3 Doors Down"

Two off the button could be "In the cross-hairs"

Cut-off

Button

of your very best...great post...gl

S & M define early position as the first three positions to the left of the big blind in a ten-handed game. They define middle position as the fourth, fifth and sixth positions to the left of the big blind. And they refer to late position as on the button, just to the button's right and "sometimes in the position two to the button's right." I can't find anything that explains when that "sometimes" is.


I've always felt the easiest thing to do is number the positions from 1 to as many players are in the game beginning with the small blind. Small blind is always 1st position, big blind is always 2nd position, UTG is always 3rd position. Thus instead of "there was one limper from early middle position and I raised from late position" you'd have "7 players; position 4 limped and I raised from position 6." UTG, the cutoff and the button can still retain their current meanings as they are clear and don't present the imprecision that "late position" does.


The imprecise "late" position should be reserved only for comparison purposes in general statements, usually using "later", such as "one can play more hands from later positions than from earlier positions."

i like to refer to utg as positon 1 and countown. 8 being the button. 1,2,3 early, 4,5,6 middle, 7,8 late! utg 1 because its the first position to act.

Each of us can concoct a sensible way of numbering/indicating each seat. But we don't have a standard yet that any reader would understand without explanation.


It doesn't make sense to me to call UTG #1. After the flop it's the third seat. Kinda confusing.


Calling the SB #1 and going clockwise makes sense, except that any telling of a hand would have to include exactly how many players are in the hand in order to figure out what number the button is. Sounds like too much work.


Why not make the button #1 and count counterclockwise? After all, it IS the #1 position, positionally speaking.


Eventually we'll have a standard, and I suspect it won't use numbers. I'm guessing it'll be words, like cutoff and button and UTG, because speech, moreso than writing, is what stears the course of language.


Tommy

It's not unusual that some seats have specific names (cut-off, UTG) and others just general locations (late). Baseball has the same thing: you can hit leadoff or cleanup, but all the other positions in the batting order have no name and are referred to by number, i.e., batting 3rd or 7th or whatever.


Incidentally, the numbers on the backs of the uniform were initially determined by one's spot in the batting order. Ruth had his famous #3 and Gehrig #4 because they batted 3rd and 4th. Also, the positions, in scorekeeping, have numbers that most people who don't keep score find confusing. Pitcher and catcher are numbers 1 and 2. Then first base is #3, second base #4, shortstop #6 (!) and third base #5. Left field, center and right are #s 7,8,& 9 respectively. My son couldn't believe it when I showed him a ground ball out from second baseman to first baseman was scored 4-3 and not 2-1.


The standard could be set by a famous writer. For example, if, in their next book, S & M adopted a standard, I would think it would have a pretty good chance of being accepted, whatever the standard was.