Over Emphasizing Position

OVER EMPHASIZING POSITION


I disagree with the title of my article.


I do not feel that one can over emphasize the value of position when playing Poker. I personally play hold em most of the time so the focus of my thoughts are in the area of hold em. I know that many believe that post-flop play makes up for a lot, including lost position. While I agree that expert players can make up a ton of ground post flop, I still believe position to be vitally important for one very simple reason. There are very few hands that are profitable from early position. As with most statements, there are always exceptions, but for the most part, I believe the aforementioned statement to be brutally truthful.


Because of this, I have adopted a pre-flop early position strategy as follows:


AA, KK, QQ, Raise

JJ, AKs, AK Raise or limp depending on game and opponents

1010, 99, AQs, AJs Usually limp


EXCEPTIONS

1010, 99, AQs, AJs Muck in Aggressive games

77, 88, KQs Usually muck but occasionally limp if game is really passive with many players pre-flop


I am not saying these are set in granite and that I never vary, but for the most part, these are the only hands I play up front. Sometimes I look at this list and feel I still play too many hands.


Now, I will occasionally make the HPFAP suggestion play of raising a suited connector up front. When I say occasionally, I sometimes pick a hand at the start of each month and raise it whenever I am in the first 2-3 spots with no one but the blinds in. For example, I chose the 67 suited in diamonds about 6 months ago. I only raised it when I had exactly 67 diamonds. Lately though, I have not done this at all as I have found no need.


I have heard many times from poker friends that I am very predictable up front. I have also heard that I am action when in late position. I would tend to agree with both statements. I do not worry too often that I am that predictable up front because I do not feel my profit is coming from the players who notice which hands I play and how I play them from early position. I try to play enough hands with position, even overplay occasionally, to ensure that I get action on my big hands. The action players do not pay that close of attention to position and when they do actually pay attention, they forget about it quickly. What they do remember though is when someone they think is supposed to be a tight or good player turning over 79 suited against them.


I mentioned that I occasionally overplay a hand such as this. I have found that doing certain little things such as giving up an extra bet pre-flop can have huge value on future hands for many weeks and months to come. For example, I occasionally make the following type of play. When I say occasionally, I mean about once every 50 hours or so. With 5 or more opponents, I will raise with a hand such as 79 suited. IF, some 3 bets behind me, I will CAP it. When I do get lucky enough to turn the ole 79 of diamonds over for the winner, average, weak, and downright bad players see this and their eyes light up. They think they have truly found a complete idiot who feels that the 79 of diamonds is a capping hand. They cannot understand that in a 10-20 game, by capping it, I am only giving up 1 small bet, or an extra $10 (I would obviously call the re-raise anyway), and in return, have gained guaranteed action from the weaker players at the table. The beautiful thing is that this action is usually unconditional. It does not matter that I will only turn over premium hands on them for days and weeks at a time, they still have at the front of their minds, the one time I capped it with the ole 79 soooted. I can raise a week later ender the gun against the same player(s) and have a flop of AKQ and these players will call and even re-raise with a lone Q or better even yet, an under pair such as 99 or 1010. I feel the capping is key for a long lasting impression. Many times players will raise the garbage hands for advertisement, but the pre-flop over play cap is huge. Players actually believe I feel this is a capping hand and they cannot keep it in perspective.


Note: In my part of the country, a cap is 4 bets (a bet and 3 raises). I agree with Mason when he says he feels this rule has the opposite effect than for which it was intended. Mason says that he feels casinos implemented it to save players money by not having to put in 5 bets. However, many, many players will be looser or more aggressive in similar situations to the one I am describing, knowing they will only have to pay 4 instead of 5 bets. It actually has the opposite effect than what was intended. I feel this type of strategic 4 betting would be ineffective for the most part in a room that allows a bet and 4 raises.


The above type of play is usually enough that I do not have to play any bad hands out of position for action. This has not always been the case. Three years ago I played super tight from every position. I stopped getting action from even the weakest players. The main problem was that I was playing with the same group of 30-40 players all the time and they really stopped giving me any action at all because of how tight I played. I tried to adjust and had a brutal time. I lost 67 of 72 sessions and well over 10 large in the span of just over 3 months. I basically went to the opposite end of the spectrum and became a maniac. However, when I finally found the proper mix to my play, I have been very successful ever since. Some may read this and think I played awful during this period of time. They would be correct; I did play very poorly. I do truly believe though that this was the most important lesson of my poker life. I now am very comfortable with how I play. I am not saying I play well or correctly, however I do feel I have found the right mix for me.


There has been a lot of discussion on this forum and others regarding position. I cannot emphasize enough my belief that there are a very limited number of hands that are profitable long term from early position. It really is that big of a factor in hold em. I love competing in a game where players play many hands up front. This is one sign of a good game to me.


I am sure some will disagree and others agree with my post. The main question I have is am I over emphasizing position too much here? Are there more hands than I believe which can be profitable from early position? Am I playing too tight up front?


To me, if a hand is not profitable long term, either directly or indirectly (future action), it is not worth playing.


All comments are welcome and appreciated.


Just some thoughts…


Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)

I don't pretend to be an expert, but I have read a lot and played some hold'em in my time.


Position for me has always been a difficult concept to fully grasp. However a comment I did remember by a reputable author (it wasn't Mason, not sure who it was)is that ".....in most cases you still have to show a hand to win".


I believe this comment was directed at players who tend to overemhasize position. Of course what he was saying is that showing say " a set" from any position is usually a winner. It was directed not only to those who are tight up front but also those who tend to be too loose near the button and play too many hands in late position.


Yes you generally cannot leverage your betting position to get more money in the pot because of where you sit. And maybe in the long run the pots you do win from early position are not large enough to offset the losses. Still though your standarsd do seem to be a bit tight up front.


Good Luck,


Yvonne

Mike D


I agree with your general thoughts on position. My early position strategy has wavered almost exactly as yours has. First, I played very tightly and would muck most all hands including A-Q, A-J(s), A-T(s), K-Q, and 8-8. Then as I became more comfortable playing and as the games really began to loosen up, I opened quite a bit to include lots of hands like K-T(s), Q-T(s), K-J, Q-J. I think I opened up a bit too much and ignored game conditions. Sklansky and Malmuth discuss opening up with suited connectors, small pairs and in IDEAL games, the K-J and Q-J. I think I opened up too much though. I'd stretch IDEAL to include way too many games, reasoning that the game is almost ideal. I'm still unsure of the balance to my early position openers but I'm trying to play tighter and am opting to fold more with mediocre hands that really can't win much anyway.


I think, though, that you're playing too tight early. I just can't imagine folding A-Q(s), TT, or 99 in early position. On the other hand, my game selection is the best part of my game. I play in great, loose games and in any game I would ever play, throwing these hands away would be a huge mistake. However, maybe there is an aggressive, tough game that exists where its correct to throw these hands away from early position. It almost makes me sick to think that such a games could exist and if it does, I don't want any part of it.


Joeflex

I suspect that every experienced player, student or not, is well aware of the difference in feel between first and last and anywhere in between. Last is comfy. First isn't.


I like being comfy so I tend to play when last and fold when not. It's that simple. Reams of microscopic scrutiny as to WHY this is so do nothing to change the feeling. The best advise I could ever give pertaining to cards and bets is, learn to loathe betting first, then follow your feelings.


Tommy

Tommy:


If you equate "experience" with quality rather than quantity, I would certainly agree that most successful HE players recognize the importance of the information gained in the later positions.


I find in many of the mid-limit HE games that I play in, there are a significant number of "experienced" (here I refer to quantity rather than quality) players who have little to no concept of position. Like the myopic driver who sees a 55 mph speed limit sign, they set their cruise control to 55 and take no notice of road conditions, weather, traffic flow etc...


Whether its calling two bets cold, or not worrying about who is left to act after they limp in, these players aimlessly fixate on their two cards and do whatever it takes to see the flop. I really think these folks hit their "comfy" zone as soon as they post their first blind.


Clearly, successful players, like those who have made comments in this thread, understand the crucial importance of the knowledge gained in the late positions. In the long term, It simply isn't going to add much value to your hourly rate if you push the envelope much beyond catagory 1 and 2 starting hands.

don't you play at the hollywood in aurora IL? i was talking to river a couple weeks ago about 2+2 posters who played there and he mentioned your name... just wondering. i am always looking for 2+2 players where i play, but i can't bring myself to bring it up too much. i don't know why. anyways, i play there and would love to talk to some players there who actually know what they are doing, and most 2+2ers have a head on their shoulders at least.

Baggins,


I do play in Hollywood in Aurora although I do not claim to know what I am doing. I have a head on my shoulders, but I am not sure what exactly is in it at any given time. I am the soccer coach - currently with a limp. I usually play evenings and used to play 5-6 nights a week although lately not as much as I have been out of commission physically. I should be there Wednesday and Thursay of this week - assuming they are open - they closed this afternoon I heard. Wednesday I will be playing 10-20 and Thursday I will be playing 20-40 or 10-20. Just ask any of the regular 10-20 or 20-40 players who Michael D is or Soccer Mike and I am sure someone will find me if I am there. The staff all know me as well - just ask Lisa or Hemal or River Rich - they all know me - everyone knows who puts food on their table and Big Screen TV's in their family rooms.


Might help if I knew your name as well.


I look forward to meeting you.


Just some thoughts...


Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)

Mike

my name is jeremy and i am a big guy who will usually be pretty casual (always in pants though, never shorts. its too damn cold in the hollywood poker room.) i play infrequently, mostly because my job is a 9-5er and i am an hour away from the hollywood. i also don't make much $$ which means that if i end up losing my poker money for the paycheck, i don't show up until i have my next paycheck and i am sure that i will have enough to play right. i will mostly be found in the 2.50-5 game, as i haven't got the skills or the bankroll to beat the 5-10 or higher yet. occasionally i will sit in the 5-10 if i do end up far ahead of the lower game and want to sit in the higher limit (or if they close up the 2.50/5 for whatever reason.) as i said i am a big guy, 6'2" and about 260-280 lbs. i have short (as in shaved about a month ago) brownish blonde hair. i can usually be found in the game, waiting to sit, or smoking on the deck. for the time being, i will only be found at the hollywood on weekends (saturday afternoons, and sundays). river rich is the one who told me that you posted on here, and that's why i asked. it'd be cool to meet you sometime. ill probably be there on sunday this weekend. ill look for you and ask around a bit. glad to read your response.


baggins

Jeremy,


I will try to make it up there this Sunday - a lot will depend on if I play or not on Saturday. I will look for you if I make it there on Sunday.


Just some thoughts...


Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)