No toke for you!

Let's talk about tipping. I don't know if this is old hash for some but I really want to hear how other pros handle it.


I am a pro poker play and I don't tip. I feel as if I'm already paying a more than reasonable amount to play poker and that tipping would constitute my paying twice. If I'm playing around 8 hours a day and collection is $12 dollars an hour then I'm paying around 100 bucks a day just to play poker. That is exorbitant.


And when I play a drop game which I do when I'm running bad, then it gets really sick. Four bucks on the button for 7-handed or more can be a bit over $20 dollars an hour so somewhere in the neighborhood of $160 for 8 hours.


As an aside,the really sick thing is that players are supposed to tip in a 1-2 game where the drop is still $3 dollars. This is unconscionable. These people just don't know what's happening to them. They are uneducated about poker and what they can expect to win and how the drop totally makes it impossible to win. While they have a choice to come to the casino and play, this is not the issue at all. They expect that they might have a chance to win when they don't. On top of that, they're throwing money at the dealers. Sick.


The argument I always hear is that dealers should be tipped just like a waitress gets a tip. I just don't see these two situations as analagous. I just don't mind paying 15% extra on a restaurant bill but tipping at a casino seems to me like tipping my landlord after paying rent. It just doesn't seem right.


The casino is making tons of money and I don't like the argument that I should compensate dealers that do a good job. They definitely should be. But not by me, by the casino. I feel like I have already paid more than enough for the services I'm getting.


I've had to develop a thick skin as I'm not exactly a dealer's best friend. Some give me evil eyes, some pitch cards at my hand, some have cussed at me, some have rooted for a card on the river that they know would kill my hand. For the more flagrant violations, I have gone to management who have always dealt with the problems well and have prevented any other abuse by the dealers. But I just don't think I'm the one they should be mad at. Why is the casino making all this money and paying them only minimum wage? They shouldn't be mad at me if they don't like their job- they should go on strike.


I'd like to hear tipping polices from other pros and why?

"I just don't mind paying 15% extra on a restaurant bill but tipping at a casino seems to me like tipping my landlord after paying rent."


Seems to me your landlord analogy applies equally to a restaurant or a casino. By your reasoning, you would never tip a waiter because, hey, you already payed for the food, right? How is the food any different than the rent?


My tipping policy is fairly rigid.


1) I tip on all pots with a profit of 2 small bets or more. Exception: If the dealer is getting stiffed by others, I tip on all pots.


2) I tip on all split pots that take up some time. On the borderline cases, I'll tip when the other guy doesn't.


3)I always tip one dollar in limit games. Even when I scoop a monster, the kind of pot that most would tip extra on, I get no ill will from the dealers at all because they know in advance what they are going to get, and because I'm always quick to defend them in sticky situations.


Tommy

I'll have to agree with Tommy. Tipping $1 in limit play is my standard (huge pot, small pot, doesn't really matter....occasionally I tip more for exceptional pots or huge streaks, but this is something I should fix in my game.) I think that most dealers at my usual cardroom are content with $1...since they rotate to the bigger games, they often get bigger tips from them and don't worry too much over what the smaller limit players tip. As long as they get something, they're satisfied. It's a happy medium between not tipping at all (and pissing dealers off) and tipping so much that it really affects your overall win rate.


One time I played with a dealer from somewhere...and he said that the rake structure where he deals called for a 50 cent split most of the time. As a result, they have to push a 50 cent piece to the winner, and the winner almost always pushes it back as a tip...and nothing more. He said it was so bad, he was probably going to move somewhere where "they don't allow silver on the tables." I'm sure that dealers in those cardrooms would really appreciate a $1 tip, and you can use the spare change for the waitresses or get chips back or whatever. I don't think it pays to have the dealer on your bad side, especially to the point where they're trying to foul your hand.

Joeflex,


One way of evaluating a behavior is looking at what would happen if everyone or did it. In Los Angeles dealers make minimum wage minus a mandatory $1 to $2 per hour for tip pool, which is distributed to floormen, chip-runners and board people (similar in concept that a cocktail waitress tipping a service bartender or a waitress tipping the bus-people). This is reality, a custom in most gambling halls, and won’t change.


No competent person would deal if most players behaved as you did. The collections would then have to be raised. But they are already too high and business and games would drop off which would hurt all of us. Under the current system (in Los Angeles) everyone pays most of the costs equally and customary tipping by the pot winners (in most limits usually the looser players anyway) gives the dealers a chance to make a half decent living.


By not tipping you are freeloading off those of us that do. This doesn’t mean that you must tip every dealer. Why not be selective? Reward good dealing with a tip. Stiff bad dealers. Protect all dealers from abuse. Never behave abusively. The atmosphere in the card rooms will improve and such a policy will allow the good ones to make a living and make the games better.


Of course you are in the minority so you can probably get away with what you are doing. But next time you discuss your “hourly rate”, subtract the money you should have tipped.


Regards,


Rick


PS Your arguments about the drop game are another issue. Don’t cloud things by using it to justify not tipping.

Joeflex,


If Casinos pay way more than minimum wage to the dealers and prohibit tipping to them, their quality will go down.


Generally speaking, the dealers in Vegas, Tunica and California (I assume as I never played in CA before) are better than the one in Illinois, Indiana and Michigan. The difference is that while in the first group (NV, MI & CA), you can tip to the dealers and they can keep their own tip, but in the second group (IL, IN & MS), they share the tip with other dealers.


If dealers canÕt keep their own tip, or can't get tip at all, I think the quality will go down. My point is that tipping is a good deal as it keeps the quality high.


Or are you saying that dealers should get paid more than minimum wage + tip?


by Soh


p.s. Ésome of the poker dealers in IL are excellent...

I think your policies and beliefs on tipping are misguided. Dealers make their money mostly from tips. Dealers that are well compensated are more motivated to do a good job, which makes games run faster, and better. Fast, well run games allow us to make more money. As a non-tipper, you are likely to be disliked by not only dealers, but floorpeople as well. While they are likely to correctly enforce any CLEAR CUT CASES of rule violations by dealers, when you are in a borderline situation, don't be surprised if they rule against you. Players may very well dislike you as well, which may cause the quality of the game to seriously degrade. I happen to be rather outspoken when I see someone who is failing to tip. I think it is rude, cheap, distasteful, and hurts not only the game you are in, but the entirety of poker in general. On several occasions I have made certain non-tippers wish they had picked a different table than mine to play at. After all, casino employees have to take shit from customers, they really can't defend themselves very efficiently. However, I am not a casino employee, therefore I am not bound like they are.


If you are so worried about the cost of playing poker, taking it out on the dealers is not the best way to handle it. If you are paying 12$ an hour time charge, I hope you are playing at least middle limits. I believe the time charges in atlantic city are 6$/half hour for 15-30 limits. At these stakes, tipping $1 per pot is trivial. If you are playing in a 1-2 game with a 3$ dead drop on the button, you are certainly not playing winning poker, and you should know it, because this game is certainly completely unbeatable. Therefore the extra cost of tipping is really kind of a moot point. If you are playing in a low limit game, like 3-6, with a $4 dead drop on the button, the same thing applies. You can't possibly be playing a winning game, or if for some reason the game is in fact slightly beatable, you can't possibly be making much. Again, tipping here is kinda moot because you are already going bust fast anyway.


Now in situations where the game IS IN FACT BEATABLE, the cost of tipping should not cut into your profits enough for you to be worried about it. Tommy has a very good point in his post. He tips $1 per pot and doesn't jack it up with big pots. I pretty much follow this same policy, except occasionally I tip an extra buck for an especially good dealer, or on an especially large pot. Most of the time though, everyone is going to get a buck, they know it, and they are OK with it.


There are some instances where tipping is not needed. For instance, if I steal the blinds, I don't tip. No biggie. On tiny pots, say less than 10$ in a 3-6 game, I don't tip. Or if the dealer is especially horrible, makes a collosal blunder, or is rude, I might not tip. however, you really have to screw up pretty bad to piss me off to the point where I won't tip. This has only happened a few times.


Face it, the cost of playing poker is not suddenly going to be lowered by the casino you are playing in. With the exhorbanant prices you mentioned, you must play near LA. The cost of poker there is relatively prohibitive to the good player making any profit. This is perhaps the fact you should face, rather than take it out on dealers. The casino is also not going to all of a sudden raise the dealers' salaries to the point where they would make the same amount of money without tips. Another fact. For dealers to do a good job, they need to make good money. This will only happen if there is tipping. If the players were to all stop tipping, the quality of dealers would go so far down as to make the game of poker unplayable under most circumstances. Tipping is between you and the dealers, not you and the casino, and not the dealers and the casino. You hurt the game, and yourself, when you don't tip. Excessive tipping is not necessary. Just a reasonable tip is all that is needed to fairly compensate poker dealers.


Dave in Cali

I tip $1 per hand won. Big pot or small pot. I don't tip when I steal the antes in stud or Blinds in HoldEm.


I will not tip the dealer a 2nd time during the current time in the box if he/she does not say thank you after the first toke.


John

I don't think that tipping a dealer makes his service to a player any better. If his service gets worse when you don't tip, he'll be fired and there will always be somebody there to take his place.


At the same time, if you are a professional poker player you'd like to make as much money as possible. When players don't tip, other players get mad. When players get mad, they may play better against you. They also tend act obnoxious...some dealers do as well. Very quickly, poker ceases to fun. The "fun" players, who you want to play against, leave the table to find a place with less hostility. Also, since the poker table is your workplace, I would imagine you'd be willing to pay a dollar or so a hand to make your table a more pleasant place to work.


Tipping a dealer, in theory, seems rediculous to me as well. However, I think you'd have a better day at work, and make more money in the long run, if you tipped.

At my reguler game I always tip $1. When I go on a 'road trip' where no one knows me I tip $.50. This is: A.> To falsely advertise that I am used to a smaller game. B.> Because nobody knows me,I won't be there long,so I don't care if they think I'm cheap.

How do others feel about dealers that do not acknowledge, yet alone say "Thank you" for a toke. I have noticed a couple of dealers at the Trop-AC that do not acknowledge a player at tip time nor do they say thank you to the table when they leave.

Well, I've received a bunch of half-ass, institutional arguments on why I should tip and not one person even bothered to mention the key point: why should the cusomer rather than the employer pay for a dealer's services. No one even bothered to mention in passing why my paying $100 a day, or around $2400 a month, to play poker should not be entirely enough without having to tip.


I thought I would get a little more solid analysis about the industry we all play in and why its so expensive and why we should be expected to tip on top of this. Instead, I received arguments that I should tip so the dealers don't slow the game down (this begs the issue- whose responsibility is it to keep the game running smoothly), so the other players don't get mad and make the game bad (no one has ever been mad at me for not tipping- I don't understand this argument), so a righteous tipper at the table doesn't embarrass me by calling me cheap and rude (again begs the issue- I don't see how I'm cheap when I pay such an exorbitant rent). No one can see the forest through the trees.


Several of you mention that prices are already too high and another acknowledges the unbeatability of the low limit games as just a fact of life to deal with and how tipping in these games is moot. I don't think its a moot point to those who tip. This is an outrageous double standard and doesn't even begin to address my main concern: whose responsibility is it to pay the dealers? No one even mentions or assigns any culpability to the other side of the equation- management. Why can't they take my $100 a day and pay their employees it? Anyone? Anyone? You're all a bunch of institutional apologists who I don't think have adequately thought about this issue.


Dealers will not receive a dime from me. Any abuse from them is immediately taken to upper management. I pay more than enough for their salary. And with all you suckers out there generously paying double, I guess poker will get along just fine.

The point has been made clearly, yet you call the explanations half assed. I will use simple sentences so you can undestand.


Dealers are paid mininum wage.


Mininum wage is not enough money to earn a living.


If dealers cannot earn a living, they will seek work elsewhere.


The only dealers left will be incompetents.


Players do not want incompetent dealers.


Players must tip to ensure that dealers earn a living.


Management will not pay dealers more because they are greedy bastards.


You will not pay dealers more because you are an obnoxious bastard.

Joeflex:


I certainly don't agree that those who do decide to tip are carrying those who don't. This is simply not a reasonable argument when tipping is an optional and personal choice. It's your choice, and you shouldn't be made to feel obligated to follow anyone else's standards, opinions, or guidelines.


I would only add that you consider the "human" factor. Dealers are people just like you and me who like to feel appreciated at their jobs. Certainly one way to do this is to toke at whatever rate you are comfortable with. There are alot of other things, some very small and some more obvious, that show the dealer you appreciate their efforts that do not involve tipping. I know money talks and bu!!sh!t walks, and although you may not be able to change your "tightwad" image, you certainly can earn the respect of many dealers by making sure you acknowledge a job well in other ways.


By not tipping, I assume many dealers are looking for other reasons to dislike you or root against you. You have to make a special effort to get them to overlook this. The best you can hope for is the dealer who says..."He sure is a tightwad, but he's pleasant to deal to and helps me do a better job so I can get better tokes...."

Anonymous dealer saying: -- "It's okay if you're a stiff, and it's okay if you're a prick, but don't be a stiff prick."


Joe: "Well, I've received a bunch of half-ass,..."


How dare you take that tone with friendly people who gave their time to you.


"... institutional arguments on why I should tip and not one person even bothered to mention the key point:"


Your reading comprehension?


"why should the cusomer rather than the employer pay for a dealer's services."


The customer always pays for services. That's how business works. If the money appears to you to go from the employee to the employer, check your vision. Where do you think the employer's money comes from?


"No one even bothered to mention in passing why my paying $100 a day, or around $2400 a month, to play poker should not be entirely enough without having to tip."


If you go to a store to buy a toaster and you think the price is too high, do you go to the management and complain? Well, maybe you do. Most people simply buy a toaster somewhere else, or go without. Poker is a product, no different that a toaster. If you think the price is too high, don't buy it.


I pay about $35,000 per year to play, and it's never even occured to me to complain about the price. If you think something is overpriced and you continue to buy it, who is the fool? The price gougers? I don't think so.


Tommy

Cigarman


I appreciate your comment and am glad someone wrote a line who does not reflexively stand up for the industry and is prepared to give a more balanced, reasonable view. My goal in writing my post was to incite some discussion on the industry and to discuss where the obligation to pay dealers SHOULD lie. All I got was knee-jerk reactionism giving me bad analogies and calling me a cheapskate who is freeloading off of the poker community. Oh, well. I've found that this is forum is great for discussing the play of hands but is very conservative when dealing with poker-related issues.


One issue I would like to address is my conduct in the casino. There seems to be some questions that because I don't tip, I must behave like an asshole in general. On the contrary, I am polite and respectful. I never berate dealers or act abusively in any way whatsoever. I normally sit in the corners and push bets in the pot so the dealer does not have to reach. I never discuss my philosophy for not tipping and do not encourage new players to do what I do. When I am asked by a new player about tipping policies, I tell them what the custom is. I am pleasant but not overly friendly towards dealers. I am sorry quite often that I don't tip. I spend a great deal of time with these people and do wish that I could be friendlier with them. But I don't feel it is my responsibility.


Joeflex

Tommy


I am sorry you misinterpreted my somewhat offensive language for anything mean-spirited. I used the word "half-ass" to try to shake things up and get the discussion going in a different direction. It may have been inappropriate and I apologize for that.


I think your analogy is off. Who has ever tipped the toaster salesman? I am perfectly content paying the current poker rates and do so without complaint. Its not the price of poker that is too high but the price of tipping. Since I think the price of tipping is too high, I don't tip.


The aim of my post was to get a discussion going on whose responsibility it is to pay the dealer's wages? That's all. Isn't it possible that the industry is flawed in that the casino should pay for the employees. Just because things are the way they are-customers tip out to dealers as their main wage- doesn't mean that's the way they should be.


Let me give a good example. Exotic dancers have always paid management for the right to dance on stage. That is how it has always been. Suddenly, a couple years ago, two lawyers came in and argued that the dancers are employees of the dance club and must get all benefits that any employee gets and cannot be charged for the right to work at a club. The specifics aren't important. What is important is that the dance club industry had a standard way things were done for thirty years. Now the case is pending in court that maybe they've been doing it wrong all this time. So maybe the poker clubs have it wrong too? Perhaps not, but lets discuss it.

Tommy,


I havent followed this whole discussion, but I think you also have to consider that market mechanism in some cases doesnt apply properly. Maybe this is not the case in California, or Vegas, but here Holland Casino has a monopoly, and therefore I cant go to another place. Now I think it's perfectly legitimate to do whatever I can to put that price down. I think a "then you shouldnt poker" doesnt apply here. That is NOT an option ;-)


Regards

The fact of the matter is that poker is a tipping culture, just like going to a restaraunt, or taking a cab. If you don't tip, the employees aren't getting paid. You obviously don't like it, you don't accept it as being fact, and you blame management. The tipping culture of poker is the same whether it's a small cardroom in vegas with a very low rake, or whether it's a 4$ dead drop on the button in LA. Either case, the dealers get paid the same way. Your only real way to make tipping seem less significant is to play in a room where the cost of poker is less. If you don't want to be a tipper, fine, be that way. It's your karma. I however, will always tip. It's just the right thing to do. After all, I used to work for tips. I guess you must not have, or you would be a tipper. People who work for tips don't expect excessive tips, a buck is all they ask, and this is reasonable.


As for your solid analysis as to why the industry is so expensive, it's simple. The demand in your area is so high, and the managers of the cardroom are so greedy, they can afford to charge outrageous rates, because you suckers will all pay it.


Dave in Cali

f

"I am perfectly content paying the current poker rates and do so without complaint. Its not the price of poker that is too high but the price of tipping. "


But you're NOT perfectly content paying the current poker rates, you already complained about how much you pay per day to play. The price of tipping is the same everywhere, and it's REASONABLE. The price extracted by the house from the players varies, and sometimes, like in your area, is quite unreasonable.


"Just because things are the way they are-customers tip out to dealers as their main wage- doesn't mean that's the way they should be. "


Perhaps not. But there are lots of things in the world that ain't as they should be, and we can't change them all. This is one thing that isn't going to change. There is no point in dwelling on the inequity of this particular system, because there's nothing you can do to change it. There's a brick wall outside my office if you want to complain about it.


I don't think you are going to be able to change this one. Poker dealers arent' exotic dancers, and neither are waiters or bartenders. They all get tips as the majority of their salary, that's just the facts.


Dave in Cali

Ikke,


"I think you also have to consider that market mechanism in some cases doesnt apply properly."


My understanding of market mechanism is that there is no "properly." There is simply application, whatever it happens to be. Perhaps by "properly" you mean, "As I wish it would."


"Maybe this is not the case in California, or Vegas, but here Holland Casino has a monopoly, and therefore I cant go to another place."


I'm sorry to hear that.


That a regional monopoly would raise prices above the national norm is not "bad" or "wrong" in my opinion. It's just the way monopolies pan out. If you were running the Holland, and you could raise the bottom line by charging a buck more per hand, would you be expected to pass on that opportunity?


"I think a "then you shouldnt poker" doesnt apply here."


All I'm saying is that when we know the price and we know the product, our choice is to buy or not.


"[not buying] is NOT an option ;-)"


Understood! And that's why the price is high at the Holland. Market and Demand, with a capital D.


Tommy

The money to the dealers(D) comes from the casino(C) which gets their money from the patrons(P). Whether justifiable or not the casinos need (M) amount of money to be profitable. If (D) needs more then (C) will charge (P) more to maintain (M).


So, if everyone stopped tipping the rake would increase to balance the shortfall.


The players who tip realize this and are willing to pay their fair share whether they agree or not. By not tipping you're simply getting a free ride. Sort of like a leech, a parasite, a bum on the dole.

Tipping is a custom in this country for certain services. (In Japan, for example, tipping is virutally unknown.) That's just the way things are. You tip in a restaurant. You don't tip the toaster salesman. But if you buy a toaster and a vacuum, and a kid help you out to your car, tipping is customary for that (at least where I live).


Whether or not the system if flawed is irrelevant. Who should be reponsible for paying the dealers' wages is also irrelevant. The fact is that their wages, like those of waitresses are highly dependent on the accepted (by most) tipping convention. If one chooses not to tip at a place where one frequents, for instance, a local restaurant, one will be looked on as a jerk.


The custom that blacks had to sit at the back of the bus and had to drink at separate water fountains was an injustice, an accepted custom that was wrong and should have been changed. Tipping poker dealers or waitresses doesn't seem to me to be as important an injustice or flaw in the system. It isn't discrimination as it affects everyone the same way.


By the way, I haven't ever been to one, but I understand exotic dancers are tipped (pun intended), as I've seen scenes in movies and on TV where the patrons insert currency of various denominations in ingenious ways into the appropriate places for such currency on the perfomers' bodies.

Where I play, if you play in the top section, food is free. I tip the food server $5 when I order a meal, $1 when I get a bottle of water or a coffee.


Now the food is "free" only because on an average day I pay $90 in collections. Would you tip the food server?

I surprised how strongly joeflex and his ideas were attacked. In alot of situations I think it is asking too much to tip. I cannot see tipping in a chopped pot, when stealing the antes or blinds, etc. Granted joeflex is advocate of no tipping, but it seems everyone who responded wanted to tip almost always which i find a bit much.


I think Malmuth wrote an article about the idea of ending tipping and slightly increasing the drop. Though i doubt if he reposted his ideas he'd get the quarelsome responses i have just read.


I am impressed with how guitly some people feel about tipping. So many times ive heard ,"did i give you something." I think people feel a pressure to tip which shoudln't exist.


The fact is most people who play 10/20 and 15/30 make less than dealers. I don't players should feel shame in not tipping occasionally or at all.


In addition when i have spoken to cardroom managers, (this was mostly in conneticut), they repeatedly said it was the customers option to tip or not. I bring this up as I have heard all too many sarcastic and obnoxious comments from dealers who felt they were not tipped sufficiently or at all.

"My understanding of market mechanism is that there is no "properly." There is simply application, whatever it happens to be. Perhaps by "properly" you mean, "As I wish it would." "


No, I didnt mean by "properly" "as I wish it would". I must admit my choice of words was not very good, but I think (and this has not much to do with this discussion) that there surely are cases were the market mechanism is disrupted. For instance a monopoly, where the company which has the monopoly trades in a first necessity of life. Supply and demand doesnt work here "properly".


"That a regional monopoly would raise prices above the national norm is not "bad" or "wrong" in my opinion"


I agree that we shouldnt speak of a right or wrong here. The goal of a company is to make money. But there should be organizations IMO who regulate the conflicting interests of corporations and consumers. My opinion is that "pure" marketmechanism cant function well.


Regards

"why should the cusomer rather than the employer pay for a dealer's services."


I've read only a few of the posts in this thread, so I hope what I'm about to say isn't too repetitious. First, let me point out that customers will always directly and/or indirectly pay all of the compensation for dealers, whether tipping is encouraged or banned.


I believe it is preferable that customers directly pay a portion of dealers' compensation in order to help promote the level of service/competence. I believe that customers are generally more likely to reward superior dealing than casino managements, which are usually incompetent and incestuous.


I tip less than most players, because I refrain from rewarding dealers who are incompetent or rude. (I also rarely tip more than one dollar.) I know that other players do the same, resulting in the superior dealers earning more money than the inferior ones.

Ikke,


Even in Los Angeles we don't have free market competition for poker. All card clubs operate under existing licenses and it is virtually impossible to get a new one. Most clubs don't have room to expand. Most clubs are not located where they would like to be; rather, they are located where the necessary ballot initiatives have passed.


I'm not sure of any location where poker operates in a free market. This includes Las Vegas, where the casinos operate in a free market but the poker rooms are a very minor part of the casinos that chose to have them.


Regards,


Rick

Ikke,


We have no disagreement. When I said, "My understanding is that ..." that was a sincere expression of doubt/ignornance. I'd never seen the phrase "market mechanism," so I was flailing some, using context to devise my own meaning.


Tommy

I doubt if anyone missed it except Joe. now that dozens more thoughtful posts have shown up, he'll probably return to say he was hoping to spark up a discussion. I think what he means is the same as when he said that in the IWTSTH thread, namely, that he's hoping to fing one person on earth who agrees with him on anything.


Tommy

Joe,


I agree that the cost of poker is too high. But why take it out on the dealers? Poker is ran like any other business - get as much cash as possible from the customer, pay as little as possible for the services you provide (it's not that simple - but in a nutshell, that's it). Dealers are a cost to the casino. The casino will transfer as much of that cost to whomever will bear the burden. In our case, it's the customer. It doesn't mean it's right, it means it just is. If some casino advertised "tipping the dealer not allowed here", they CERTAINLY would need to pay the dealers more than minimum wage. And if they did pay the dealers enough to keep them there, they would certainly raise the cost of poker (non-tipping poker). But the tipping mechanism has a positive impact on the game; good dealers are rewarded. Bad dealers see/hear about this and strive to be better dealers (hopefully). The player has a direct influence on who is rewarded for good service.


If tipping ceased to exist, dealers would not deal without a higher salary. That higher salary would be financed by upping the cost of (non-tip) poker. It really is that simple. I'm not saying it's right - but I am saying that I don't see it changing anytime soon.


BTW - you only tip when you win a pot. Psychologically, you should be in a slightly better frame of mind about parting with 1 extra dollar just after you've won a pot.

x

Soh, where do you play in IL? the hollywood? im interested in meeting people who play there, because i am a newcomer there, and i would love to know a couple friendly faces when i go to play.

dave, i have to say that although the $3 drop at a 1-2 table is prohibitive, it can still be beat when played against many of the players in LA who frequent these tables. ive made money there, playing many hours while i was in LA. this is about the only game selection you can exercise when you can only afford to play 1-2 and 2-4. perhaps there is some equation that proves me wrong, but id have to argue the assumptions of that formula.

first, are exotic dance halls where we learn all our lessons on innovation in business? i hope not. second, lets look at the whole nature of tipping. it is an industry standard, which pervades the issue and makes it stickier, but it shouldn't determine what is right and wrong here. tipping is arbitrary in its nature. it is usually not required, and is completely up to the customer. the food service industry continues to blur the line on this issue. we tip the waiter at the local greasy spoon and he has to split this with the bus boy who cleans the tables. do we tip the drivethru guy at mcdonald's so he can then split it with the guy who cleans the tables there? no, we don't and i do see a difference in the service provided... to be continued...

"I surprised how strongly joeflex and his ideas were attacked. ... I think Malmuth wrote an article about the idea of ending tipping and slightly increasing the drop. Though i doubt if he reposted his ideas he'd get the quarelsome responses i have just read."


I think you're right, but the reason isn't because of the ideas, it's because of the delivery. Mason isn't boorish.


Tommy

It's common for players, especially pros, in LV to tip .50. So Tommy, if you lived and played there, how much would you tip?

I think the best justification you could have for not tipping would be that you play in the room every day, that you help start games, and that if you didn't, there would be fewer games from which the dealers would draw tips. Therefore, you are helping them more than hurting them.

"It's common for players, especially pros, in LV to tip .50. So Tommy, if you lived and played there, how much would you tip?"


Good question, and I really don't know. The cost of living there is somewhere around 1/3 of what it is here, so maybe 50-cents is common because dealers can live the same life style there that $1 per hand buys here. I'm just guessing. If I did tip 50-cents, I'd probably tip more often on very small pots that I don't tip on now, meaning the actual difference between here and there would be more like the difference between $1 and .75.


Tommy

The bad will and poor relationships around the table have to affect his game. It's costing him way more than the extra 30 bucks a day toking might cost him.

"I appreciate your comment and am glad someone wrote a line who does not reflexively stand up for the industry..."


I haven't seen a post where anyone has stood up for the industry. Instead, people have stood up for the dealers, and there is a difference. The industry are giant casinos with a bottom line mentality. The make large profits and will milk as much as they can from their costumers. That is the American Way.


Dealers on the other hand are people, and as such, must be view differently than the industry. I hope you agree with the basic belief that dealers deserve a living wage. If you do, then your argument is how this wage should be paid. Others have pointed out, and I will again, that the better dealers earn more, and the poor dealers earn less. I feel that this system should remain the same. I expect good service, and good service if more likely if the dealers are paid directly by the costumers. This is also true for restruants. Someone else made a comparison between McDonald's and a diner that is very apt. Think about it. Do you want your dealers giving the same poor service that you see at McDonald's? I hope not.


"My goal in writing my post was to incite some discussion on the industry..."


If you are concerned about the amount you pay to play poker, then complain to management. And do so loudly and often. Get others involed, and demand a smaller drop. Organize a boycott. Embarrass the management. But pay the dealers; they deserve their living.


"...and to discuss where the obligation to pay dealers SHOULD lie."


Again, the obligation should lie with the players, to ensure quality service, and to ensure a fair wage.


"All I got was knee-jerk reactionism giving me bad analogies and calling me a cheapskate who is freeloading off of the poker community."


In truth, my earlier post was rude and "knee-jerk", but I think most posts where polite, logical, and quite fair. Those "bad analogies" are logical and consice. And you are a cheapskate.


Instead of searching for someone who agrees with you, why not reread the other posts, and think on them. There is wisdom that you may have missed.


Johann

.

Joe, to give your thoughts any credibility, I'd like to see a business plan for a poker room run to cater to players just like you! Put a plan together, detail how your business is going to profit, and how you're going to compensate your dealers. I'm all ears. I think if you put together an attractive package, the best dealers around the world will flock to your establishment to deal to people who are pleasant, and "throw air" all day long.


There actually are casinos where the dealers aren't compensated by tokes. The "dealer", of course, is a computer. And maybe that is the future of live games. Computer tables. That way the only reason you'll have to face the increased rake is to pay for the hardware necessary to have computer operated tables.


My question to you would be: Why should a dealer provide a service to a person unwilling to compensate him/her for providing that service? If you have an option to stiff, shouldn't the dealer have the option not to deal you a hand?


A stiff is a mooch, and there are no two ways about that. I was happily surprised to read the posts that stated that the stiff mooches off of the other players. Perhaps if you learned how to play poker a little better, you could afford to pay for the services you receive. The rake pays for the cards, tables, food, minimum dealer wages, benifits (sometimes), floor staff, space, plus a profit for the company. Which part of the profit and expenses don't you understand? Your argument suggests that the company lower it's profit to pay dealers a decent wage (which you have not even quantified). I'm glad that you have justified to yourself that not tipping is "great effort" at reform, to most of the rest of decent Americans, you will just be another mooch, like the guys who hold signs "Will work for food".

It would be nice to find just ONE person who agreed with me. Perhaps in my next thread I'll make up a yes-man who adores and worships me.

"Whether or not the system if flawed is irrelevant. Who should be reponsible for paying the dealers' wages is also irrelevant."


Why so? Systems can be changed if they are unreasonable or don't work. IF the system is flawed, its highly relevant. Things can be done. In the age of industrialization, workers saw the system as flawed and did nothing about it. They were paid squat, worked long hours, worked in unsafe environments. They said the same thing- the system is flawed but these are the facts we have to deal with. Then, during the Progressive Movement, workers united and reformed things. The people changed everything. The point is: if things are bad, they can be changed. Of course, this does not address whether things are bad.


"If one chooses not to tip at a place where one frequents, for instance, a local restaurant, one will be looked on as a jerk."


This is basically everyone's argument. An argument from intimidation. "Tip or be a jerk." Great argument!


"The custom that blacks had to sit at the back of the bus and had to drink at separate water fountains was an injustice, an accepted custom that was wrong and should have been changed. Tipping poker dealers or waitresses doesn't seem to me to be as important an injustice or flaw in the system."


What in the world are you talking about? Are you saying that the only things worthy of changing are unconstitutional, discriminatory social customs? That's just not an accurate statement.


"It isn't discrimination as it affects everyone the same way."


Who said anything about discrimination?


Joeflex

baggins,


I usually play from Sunday - Thursday at the Hollywood. Just ask the floor person which guy is Soh, and he/she'll let you know.


By the way, a lot of the players over there are very nice. Nice and loose :-)


Soh

Suspicious!


Finally! One person who sees the light!!


You're absolutely right. There is huge guilt involved in tipping. No one has the gumption to admit that that's the main reason they tip. They are all in bed with the industry. Many are frequent posters whose names and faces are known throughout the community. Since tipping is part of the culture, to not tip a dealer would be embarrassing and place the player in the out-group. And especially after a player has started tipping, to stop would be a slap in the face and would be humiliating to both the player and dealer. They're in too deep. They're so conservative. These types of things can't be discussed here. In the future I'm just going to discuss more game-related issues. That's what this forum is about.

I don't think I made my points very well. Let me try again.


Tipping may be part of a flawed system or a system that doesn't work very well. But it's not a big deal in my estimation. Other parts of the system as they have existed in our country, such as discrimination against blacks, were much more important flaws and thus called for concerted action to change them. Tipping is, at worse, a minor inconvenience. Others might look at it differently and not see it as even that.


You obviously see it as more important than a lot of the rest of us do. So again, let me ask you: do you tip food servers, either at your casino or at a reastaurant? Do you tip anyone for any services rendered? It is simply a custom in this country, an expected thing. I see no difference in the custom of tipping a dealer as compared to the custom of tipping a waitress or a parking attendant.


Different countries and cultures have different customs. I stay at the same group of hotels in Europe and it is expected that I leave a tip for the "chamber maid." I never do this here in the U.S., as I don't think it's expected. If I ask for something special for the room, extra towels or whatever, I will tip the person that brings up the towels, as I tip when I use someone to bring my luggage to the room.


Is this such a terrible thing? You are correct that this doesn't necessarily make the custom correct. But it is correct in the sense that saying "please" and "thank you" are correct. It's part of my secretary's job to bring me the faxes and other paperwork in the morning. I say thank you to her as a common courtesy. Tipping is part of our common courtesy in the U.S. Those who don't tip where tipping is normally done are justifiably looked upon as jerks. It's not intimidation at all.


I'm not saying all customs are correct or fair. The custom of forcing blacks to accept lower status was a horrible thing which treated some people differently than others. Tipping customs apply equally to all and thus an unfairness argument does not apply.

Joe? I dunno about you, but when I post something on here and every single respondant disagrees with me, which has happened several times, I am forced to reconsider my position. Have you been even remotely mildy even somewhat tempted to reconsider yours?


If not, then why do you say you invite "discussion?" Doesn't that imply a sharing a ideas for the sake of improving our own?


Tommy

Joeflex, It is amazing how much response your post generated - I counted approx 49 including your responses some of which are asinine or maybe contradicting yourself at best. You were looking for a "yes-man" to agree with you and quite elated when (I think it was SUSPICIOUS) whose response is more on the line of proper tipping rather than not tipping at all! You seem to be an intelligent, articulate and educated man that unfortunately a member of a very minute minority in the poker world - the none tippers. There is not much more that I can contribute to the enunciations of the other posters in this thread most of which have articulated that only those with IQs of 75 or thick-skinned will fail to comprehend.


You claim to be a professional player - but you don't tip. This must have triggered those responses as the real pros do not want to be associated with your species. (By the way, I am just a rec LL player so I'm not one of them).


You said {I am pleasant but not overly friendly toward dealers...I wish I could be friendlier with them. But I don't feel it is my responsibility}. If you are as polite and respectful as you claim to be, can you think of some other way that you can gain their friendship?


Maybe a little toke will accomplish this and would stop the dealers from rejoicing everytime your pocket aces are cracked by a J2o on the river in a capped betting. Then you maybe able to sleep better. Enough said.

Joe:


Here's a little more cannon fodder for your argument.


When you fly on plane, the flight attendants provide you with a service similar, and in many ways more difficult, than the services provided in other industries where tipping has become "expected". Just like dealers, waitresses, etc...some attendants are extremely adept at providing this service and some aren't. Most attendants are members of unions that have negotiated a "reasonable" wage for providing their respective corporations this service. Attendants do not rely on tips to support themselves because their employers pass the necessary costs onto the consumer.


Question: If we started to toke flight attendants, would the cost for airline tickets go down?


How interesting would it be to have the flight attendants lined up at the exit while the passengers are deplaning with open airsick bags looking for tokes ;-)


"Mooch" type comments that have been made, seem to insinuate the non-tipper is not carrying their proper weight of the "expected" toke income. The "if everyone where like you, there would be no good dealers" argument is somewhat short-sighted.


Theory: If everyone stopped tipping, the dealers would unionize, and put pressure on ownership to provide a reasonable wage. No dealers, good or bad, means no income for ownership. This might mean higher rakes, but like competing airlines, the consumer is going to pick the casino that provides the best service for the best price. Viva capitalism!

Cigarman


I can always count on you to give a balanced viewpoint. You are one of the few on this forum of institutional apologists who can think past the green felt. Airline stewardesses is a fantastic example of a service-oriented job that does not rely at all on tips. And I'm sure we can think of tons of others. How about a movie theater? I pay 9 bucks for 2 hours and I have the nerve to stiff the cashier/ticket taker/candy people/usher/projector guy and janitors. Two hours in a casino could cost four times as much, but I'm supposed to tip the dealers, porters, waitresses, and floorstaff. The movie theater employees are certainly working for minimum wage and since greedy management isn't paying them more, the 2+2 posters must feel like cheap bastards stiffing them all. Why tip one and not the other? "Well, that's just the system. We tip dealers. We don't tip movie people or toaster salesmen. Now shut up and tip, you cheap bastard! After all, everybody's doing it."


I want to emphasize one other point that you made as well. A strong argument of most posters is that the players need the dealers to have a game at all and we want competent dealers so we must tip. You are the first person in over fifty posts to even mention that management needs dealers too! As if only the players are concerned with competent dealing?!


Well, I think this issue was pretty much dead on arrival. It doesn't matter though. The 2+2ers have been conned by both management and the dealers. Management makes an absolute killing. Dealers make great livings too without the debt of higher education and can make as much as 65K a year. Its the poker players who buy into the idea that management needs its huge profit margins who are the true suckers. They tip as fast and impulsively as they can, trying to alleviate their guilt and be everyone's best buddy. As it turns out, the system works great for me. Not because I'm a freeloader for not paying my fair share. I just won't pay twice my fair share because I never bought into management's greedy vision in the first place.


Joeflex