Question for all Jews and Arabs out there. [Archive]

Gamblor

10-23-2003, 04:36 PM

Frankly, if it were as simple as fighting over a piece of candy, I don't think it would generate the debate it has.

I can tell you that for Israelis, this is a fight for survival. The Zionists knew that the only way the Jewish nation would survive is to have a democratic (almost socialist) state in which the Jewish nation was the majority, with safe, secure borders. This is the only demand, and no Zionist will tell you any different.

That is why Israel builds settlements - because for the most part, safe secure borders do not allow for Arab cities 10 km from Tel Aviv. How safe is that? Hence, the Jewish state must use the Jordan River - a natural defensive "wall". Everything outside of that, anyone else can have, the Jews don't want any of it. The Palestinians seem hell-bent on preventing those safe secure borders from ever materializing, instead preferring to spend their lives in squalor and glorifying murder.

brad

10-23-2003, 04:51 PM

he (and all other US taxpayers) are paying for it (directly and indirectly) so f*** you for telling him that no one is asking him to care.

theyre asking for more than that, theyre requireing his active participation.

elwoodblues

10-23-2003, 05:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The Zionists knew that the only way the Jewish nation would survive is to have a democratic (almost socialist) state in which the Jewish nation was the majority

[/ QUOTE ]

Does anyone else see the logical loophole here? I honestly don't know how I come down on the issue of a Jewish state, but to argue that the only way to have a Jewish "nation" is to have a Jewish Nation doesn't make a bit of sense. That's like saying the only way to have a State of Minnesota is to have a State with a majority of Minnesotans.

~elwood

Tyler Durden

10-23-2003, 05:34 PM

And it's horribly stereotypical to label Jews as doctors, lawyers and business leaders and Arabs as oil barons (note the correct spelling).

Chris Alger

10-23-2003, 05:45 PM

Most of the armaments used in this conflict, nearly all of the highest-tech ones (e.g., gunship helicopters) come from one country, all of them given to one side only with few if any strings attached, many of them for free (except to tthe taxpayers). That country, ostensibly controlled by its citizens, isn't exactly complaining about being "dragged into" the conflict.

Before pointing fingers you might want to consider your own scope of responsibility.

Rushmore

10-23-2003, 06:13 PM

Although you are anything but objective about this topic, I generally respect what you say as being fairly informed and/or researched and/or experienced. I don't agree with much of it, actually, but most of the time it's tolerable.

For you, a Jewish person, to puff your chest out at an American asking what appears to be an honest question about the conflict that HE, AS A TAXPAYER, IS FINANCING (not well-asked, but asked nonetheless), and reply "Screw you, who cares what you think? Go watch Everyone Loves Raymond and don't forget to pay your taxes," you should understand that you run the risk of losing credibility and sympathy.

I mean, of course, sympathy for your arguments, not your plight.

I'm sure you would want it that way.

Anyway, I just wanted you to know that I considered the title of your post offensive in the context.

Aside from the fact that I never receive a Christmas card from Israel, signed by each and every citizen, I should also point out that "asking (us) to care" is exactly what's been done.

Again and again.

Rushmore

10-23-2003, 06:22 PM

Thank you, Mr. Television News Viewer.

So the guy can't spell. So he uses stereotypes (protect your children!). So he "has a tone."

It doesn't mean he hasn't got a right, as the financier of said conflict, to ask about it. Call Miss Manners if you like, but I would hope that you have a better response than you gave.

Rushmore

10-23-2003, 06:39 PM

Are you saying that by his American citizenship he is responsible for the acts of the Israelis?

Because that's what it sounds like to me.

And if you are saying that, I must tell you that I find it a combination of naive and idealistic to imply that each American citizen has a responsibility, assigned for not having overcome the MACHINE that is the Jewish lobby, for what's going on in the Middle East.

Have you ever heard what a bunch of "crackpots" are the Americans who would rather not finance this never-ending immolation? They are "anti-semites" and "don't understand the U.S. responsibility to uphold the only democratized nation..." etc. etc. etc.

Have YOU ever had your credibility eradicated by those who know how? How marginal do you think you are seen by some?

I'm not saying you should care about these things as they apply to yourself. I am only saying that your voice is easily turned into something far less credible once it's been processed by the machine.

So let the guy sleep at night, secure in the fact that there's nothing he can do about it.

$1 MILLION DOLLARS PER HOUR????!! Now, that sounds a little steep to me.

brad

10-23-2003, 06:53 PM

'$1 MILLION DOLLARS PER HOUR????!! Now, that sounds a little steep to me. '

i think US gives israel 8 billion a year outright (lots more in other ways, hey US just gave israel nukes for its submarine missiles, cant beat that)

and gives egypt a little less outright (althuugh nowhere near as much if anything in perks, like nuclear bombs, heh)

Cyrus

10-23-2003, 07:32 PM

Stupid Yanks only need to shut up and pay their taxes -- and let those good congressmen spend that tax money any which way they want. With a little nudge from the Israeli-American PAC's naturally. The Gamblor response to questions about the Middle East by American taxpayers, in a nutshell.

Of course, this affrontery and this arrogance doesn't come out of a vacuum. It has been bred and nourished by decades of unqualified and uninterrupted support of Israel by the US. It has come to this.

Cyrus

10-23-2003, 08:17 PM

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Although the U.S. Congress is privy to detailed reports (http://www.adc.org/IB85066.pdf) about aid to Israel, no one can really be sure (http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/010201/0101015.html) of its size, seeing as that aid is dispersed among a myriad of agencies and disguised in various forms. All for a good cause, in any case.

Cyrus

10-23-2003, 08:44 PM

The story of the USS Liberty is quite instructive. If 12 Israeli hijackers were to smash two Boeings into the Empire State Building tomorrow, the United States government would announce "it regrets this unfortunate accident" and forbid any further inquiries into the matter.

The U.S.S. Liberty was sunk by a seagull's droppings (http://www.wrmea.com/archives/sept03/0309025.html)

AmericanAirlines

10-23-2003, 08:46 PM

Hi Gamblor,
So why not just pick some other territory that the Arabs aren't it.

I don't see any oil coming out of Isreal, and I really don't think god gives a hoot where the homeland is. After all the entire *universe* is allegedly god's right?

Ok, so you say a Jewish only place is OK. Yet if I say I'd like a "no negro" place... not even "all white"...then epithet "Racist" comes out.

So why is it OK for Jews to be racist... or any non-white for that matter... but not whites?

I think it's a little unfair and one sided to be honest. And further not all of us that don't want to mix are neccesarily decendancts of Hitler, as the Jews would say about any non-Jew separatists.

So until you either support all separatist leanings, or quit your own... all I see is hipocracy.

Sincerely,
AA

brad

10-23-2003, 08:47 PM

a gross underestimate

around 10 bil a year is public figure i think

AmericanAirlines

10-23-2003, 08:49 PM

Yes Tyler it is. But it's also very sterotyping to label all whites who'd like to stay away from black or other groups as Nazis.

Yet that's what happens.

Sincerely,
AA

AmericanAirlines

10-23-2003, 09:00 PM

Hi Chris,
To be honest, I'd re-engineer the world and possibly life itself. The very fact that some alleged god decided that all food would be former living things... in and of itself... call into question the idea of an all loving god for me. As Marquis De Sade said, "Life is nothing but teeth attached to a digestive tract looking for other such entities to eat." But that's for another thread.

Now, as for my scope of responsibility... as a working class bum/slave of the rich... what exactly would you like me to do?

If I don't pay taxes I can be jailed. I can speak out and I do. About many political and economic issues. And I promise you, it has cost me much in terms of opportunity costs.

Yes, each and every one of us who pays taxes is collectively guilty of paying for the death machinery. Hell, I worked in a fighter jet factory, so I'm more guilty than most. But then again I'm also guilty of defending my friends and family as the flip side of the coin.

So until people can decide that the overarching goal is to build a utopian earth... for everyone... I'm no more or less guilty than the rest.

And damnit... the Arabs and the Jews aren't helping to achieve any utoptia are they? And at the same time they are destabilizing the world for those of us who would like to see things change for the better.

So therefore, I can't really condone either side of the fight going on over there.

Granted, we could sit around for centuries and say... "well the muslims do nasty things to women... and the jews shoot down teenage muslims armed only with rocks..." etc.

As they say, each snowflake in an avalanche denies responsibility. But fact is, we are all guilty. Life is built on death and it's engineered into your genes. Get hungry enough, you'll kill what you have to.

So it's going to take a collective decision by everyone to step up to the next level. And I don't see these supposedly holy, religious, mid-easterners doing so in any way, shape or form.

Sincerely,
AA

AmericanAirlines

10-23-2003, 09:06 PM

Thank you Cyrus.

Now think about this...

How many paid off homes does that money represent? How much food, etc.

In short, if we could stop wasting resources on these damn conflicts, how many of us could work half our lives rather than all our lives... and enjoy the extra time to just live, love, learn, etc.?

I say, good friends, good food, good parties and live life fully.

But... peace through strength. Fight if you have to. Flower power just doesn't work in the real world.

Sincerely,
AA

andyfox

10-23-2003, 11:58 PM

Even a bigot has an insight every once in a while.

The Middle East conflict resembles nothing so much as two children fighting in a sandbox, each pointing a finger and saying "he started it." (The arguments on this forum mirror that mindset.) The big difference, of course, is that people are getting killed every day. Another difference is that the children eventually grow up and, presumably, act in a more mature manner. The Middle East conflict has been going on for about 100 years now and we have the likes of Arafat and Sharon caling the shots.

And it's not that they can't solve the altercation, it's that they don't want to. They've learned to love hating each other.

Chris Alger

10-24-2003, 02:32 AM

"Are you saying that by his American citizenship he is responsible for the acts of the Israelis?"

No, I'm saying as a citizen in a democracy he's responsible for the acts of his government to the degree he can influence them. Those acts include the aid to Israel that makes the occupation, particularly the more violent aspects of it, possible. To the extent he has any ability to influence U.S. aid and support for Israel, he should exercise it. To the extent he fails to take a position he can't fault Arabs and Israelis for doing the same.

You don't have to defeat the Israel lobby to become a voice of dissent.

[ QUOTE ]
Have you ever heard what a bunch of "crackpots" are the Americans who would rather not finance this never-ending immolation? They are "anti-semites" and "don't understand the U.S. responsibility to uphold the only democratized nation..." etc. etc. etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, once or twice. I realize it's an irritant, but less of one than having to admit to doing nothing well past the point when doing nothing was shameful. Think about some guy being asked by his great-grandchild about what it was like when ML King was around, and having to admit that he was one of those assholes that voted for Wallace or threw rocks at freedom riders.

Besides, it's a lot easier now than it was 20 years ago and it will be easier still 20 years from now (when it will probably still be unresolved). People are a bit more sophisticated and Israel has lost a big chunk of its reputation. Good reputations are hard to acquire, and Israel's government shows scant interest in doing so.

As for being considered a "crackpot," consider this gem from Sen. James M. Inhofe (http://www.uscj.org/koach/kocapr12shore.htm) (R. Okla.), on "the most important reason" why Israel is entitled to the West Bank: <ul type="square"> Because God said so. As I said a minute ago, look it up in the book of Genesis. It is right up there on the desk. In Genesis 13:14-17, the Bible says: "The Lord said to Abram, 'Lift up now your eyes, and look from the place where you are northward, and southward, and eastward and westward: for all the land which you see, to you will I give it, and to your seed forever. ..... Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it to thee.'" That is God talking. The Bible says that Abram removed his tent and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar before the Lord. Hebron is in the West Bank. It is at this place where God appeared to Abram and said, "I am giving you this land," -- the West Bank. This is not a political battle at all. It is a contest over whether or not the word of God is true. [/list] When it comes to concerns about being associated with crackpots and insane racist holy warriors, I suggest Israel and its defenders have more to worry about. In fact, I first learned of this speech from a Jerusalem Post editorial complaining about such American ravings. As for the more secular defenders, they have to associate with frauds like Alan Dershowitz and Joan Peters, or crude propagandists like Krauthammer and Safire. Worshipping Zionism is less and less something that decent knowlegeable people want to be associated with. After all, look at this forum.

[ QUOTE ]
"How marginal do you think you are seen by some?"

[/ QUOTE ]
I readily confess to extreme marginality. The water is just fine.

Chris Alger

10-24-2003, 02:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is the only demand, and no Zionist will tell you any different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uri Avnery is an Israeli academic who helped create Israel. In fact he fought with Irgun. He's one of millions of Zionists that will tell you quite a bit that's different.

Rushmore

10-24-2003, 09:45 AM

Well said, sir. Although I may disagree with your idea of the power of the individual in an ostensible democracy, I wholeheartedly agree with your views as regards this "conflict," and with the accompanying zealotry and out-and-out lunacy it precipitates (see your quote of the gentleman from Oklahoma).

Rushmore

10-24-2003, 09:47 AM

...which is a little over a million dollars an hour.

nicky g

10-24-2003, 10:16 AM

"In short, if we could stop wasting resources on these damn conflicts, how many of us could work half our lives rather than all our lives... and enjoy the extra time to just live, love, learn, etc.?"

I assure you, they'd find something else to blow it on.

MMMMMM

10-24-2003, 10:19 AM

Exactly right, nicky, which is one reason taxes must be kept low so the federal government has less money to blow. Because if there's one thing you can count on, it is that they will spend all they can get and then some.

nicky g

10-24-2003, 10:36 AM

Some truth in that. My problem with it is that whether tax revenues are small or large, they still blow a goodly proportion of them on the wrong things - weapons, propping up dicatorships, unneccessary subsidies etc.

AmericanAirlines

10-24-2003, 07:50 PM

Well AndyFox,
Sorry if the facts lead me to be what you call a bigot.

By your standards I was not a bigot at one time. Life has tought me to be a little less open these days. Don't like it, but it's the same nonetheless. I once worked in a factory with many blacks. (I assume my observations on africanization are what you refer too) Seemed fine at that time. But after getting some age under my belt and see some things I had to change my point of view. To wit, it seems to me it's the *younger* africans that are the current problem. The more middle aged folks remember the fight they had to gain some parity and are less likely to be causing some of the statistics I cite.

Anyway, I liked it to children to hopefully insult both sides enough to wake up.

I agree, people are getting killed. I didn't mean to trivialize that fact.

But as you say, they *are* in love with hating each other.

Sad to say, but "I give up" and really just don't want it to drag the rest of the world into WW.III over this stupid patch of arid wasteland over there.

When I was younger I'd have had a more idealistic stance that, "Geez, we can solve this somehow". Heck I'd have even allowed myself to think *I* could get elected and do something. I'm so cynical because I've been an idealist, and seen that nothing much ever lives up to the ideal. And it's because people don't want to invest the time, energy and resource to create ideal. (Something I consider an artifact of placing money ahead of results.)

But I agree with you. They don't want to solve it by anything other than killing each other off. And then, if one side or the other was successful... they'd probably be sad that they didn't have an enemy anymore!

So I have to conclude exhaustedly and sadly, "Screw it, let them kill each other off."

Sincerely,
AA

ACPlayer

10-24-2003, 08:08 PM

It does seem that all of Israel, not just Gamblor, is taking our continued support for granted.

Should they?

andyfox

10-24-2003, 11:32 PM

Is it the "facts" that caused you to use "gotsta" in a post title?

Moonsugar

10-24-2003, 11:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The Zionists knew that the only way the Jewish nation would survive is to have a democratic (almost socialist) state

[/ QUOTE ]

Democratic??? Try fascist.

As Nietsche said:

"If you gaze for long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you."

adios

10-25-2003, 12:52 AM

"Jewish folks become Doctors, Lawyers, business leaders"

So do Arabs.

andyfox

10-25-2003, 01:11 AM

We're wasting our time here, Tom. This is a person who is concerned because there are too many "africans" in TV commercials.

brad

10-25-2003, 01:58 AM

he has a point tho.

same big money promoting evil marilyn manson and gangsta rap.
(interest in degenerate society)

Cyrus

10-25-2003, 02:40 AM

"Same big money promoting evil Marilyn Manson and gangsta rap. (Interest in degenerate society.)"

I don't know. Art in a society rarely comes out of a vacuum or a UFO and changes that society in unexpected ways. Rather, it's society that breeds its art in every era. Artists simply express the spirit of the times.

As to Manson, whose music I personally dislike (and I wish that every online opponent of mine would listen to while playing!), he made a lot of sense in Michael Moore's documentary about Columbine. He had a small interview, at the end of which he was asked what he would do to these kids to prevent them going ape murderous and Manson replied sensibly "I would listen to them. Nobody seems to have done that."

As to gangsta rap, white kids are fascinated by it but I know a lot of hip black folks who cringe.

brad

10-25-2003, 02:48 AM

yeah well manson was literally booed off stage at first but after numerous promotion they got his filth accepted.

no way was there some grass roots suppport for him.

andyfox

10-25-2003, 11:23 PM

He has a point? What is it? That there are too many people with the wrong color skin on commercials? That jews are bankers and arabs are oil barons?

Cyrus

10-26-2003, 06:03 AM

Pia Zadora, Vanilla Ice, Milli Vanilli, Fabian; the stage is litered with corpses that prove hype doesn´t always work. It mostly doesn´t work. Note also that the objective behind big hype is to create blockbuster artists, not marginal artistes like Manson! (You and I may dislike his music but this is irrelevant.)

I have seen negative hype, with Manson, in the form of disapproving statements, bans, warnings by the elders, etc. A publicist nowdays cannot buy that kind of promotion!

This doesn´t mean to say that you cannot fool a lot of people some of then time. I give you any boy- or girl-group du jour. They have the pipes but are hyped beyond anything before.

Gamblor

10-27-2003, 10:41 AM

Perhaps I ought to clarify this, seeing as I was so blatantly misread.

If you do care, then by all means fight the man. But the point is you don't have to care. The Canadian government abstains from a UN vote regarding the "atrocities" in Israel. Obviously, I care. But the Canadian government grows copious amounts of a certain plant for medicinal purposes. Despite my proclivities towards the inhalation of tiny brushfires in which this plant seems to be involved, I think the government ought not to waste its money on this project. Do I care though? No.

I often wonder if many people out there feel compelled to fight the government, no matter what it does, because they demand the satisfaction of feeling like they are in charge of their own tax dollars. Whatever the government tells them, they believe the opposite, no matter how irrational that belief may be. Perhaps the realization that your government is elected to serve in your best interests, despite the identity politics and special interest politics that dominates the electoral process today, you might live a little happier. Believe it or not, it is in your best interests that the government supports Israel.

Gamblor

10-27-2003, 10:59 AM

And it's not that they can't solve the altercation, it's that they don't want to. They've learned to love hating each other.

Well my Arab-Israeli friends may have some issue with this.

It is well accepted that we simply don't talk about it. We just have a good time together. I've been to an Arab funeral, and some of them have been to a shiva.

It's not Arabs I hate. It's murderous, lying, cheating Arabs. Just like I hate murderous, lying, cheating Jews. It just seems to me there are a lot less of them, but a generalization is just that - a generalization. Nothing more.

Gamblor

10-27-2003, 11:03 AM

"If you're young and are not a liberal, you have no heart. If you're old and are not a conservative, you have no brain."

I agree with you on this one.

Let them fight, and butt out.

Israel knows what's best for Israel.
the Arabs know what's best for themselves.

Round 1, FIGHT.

Gamblor

10-27-2003, 11:34 AM

...that the American government, supposedly the ones "in the know" about the internation world, might believe that it truly is in Americans' best interests to provide safety and security for Israel?

Given my posting history, flame away.

But I think as a question on its own, it deserves some thought.

ACPlayer

10-27-2003, 11:39 AM

I have considered the possibility.

I have also, almost, concluded, that it is not in our interest to support Israel. The apparent lack of desire to work out meaningful solutions for the 3 million people a) is immoral and b) has led to the US being targetted as the Shaitan.

Before you guys who see the world as friend or foe get all worked up -- this does not mean that I condone the tactics used by the Palestinians or other terrorists.

nicky g

10-27-2003, 11:46 AM

what he said. by the way, i was not referring solely, or even in particular, to israel in my post.

brad

10-27-2003, 01:27 PM

no i mean that if the upper classes of different societies most often identify with each other rather than with their less affluent countrymen. in other words, strife is good business.

remember movie, braveheart, and bruce the earl or whatever who wants to fight the english but his father says no just consolidate power sell out wallace. ok.

so sure theyre smart. theyre acting in thier self interest, its just that it is not compatible with the self interest of the common man, whatever the country.

brad

10-27-2003, 01:29 PM

'Believe it or not, it is in your best interests that the government supports Israel. '

unless you are/were in the US navy, especially the USS Liberty.

car wreck for you.

elwoodblues

10-27-2003, 01:49 PM

I would suspect that the President thought it was in the best interests of the US to invade Iraq too, but that doesn't mean that they're right. They might hold the belief that it is in the best interests but be wrong in their belief.

Gamblor

10-27-2003, 01:54 PM

They might hold the belief that it is in the best interests but be wrong in their belief.

And if they're right?

Gamblor

10-27-2003, 02:01 PM

A terrible, tragic mistake.

Israel was in the midst of all out war.

No US or Israeli flag on a warship in the Mediterannean.

No radio response from the ship.

Israeli tape shows a clear statement, in hebrew, of an unidentified ship.

Israeli pilots were ordered to fire upon any ship without identification/flag.

Ultimately, the question is this: why would Israel fire on it's only guaranteed ally in the war?

Conspiracy theorists abound, moslty stemming from the seamen on the Liberty itself - who are understandably bitter, and convinced it was deliberate and have disseminated wide propaganda to further this belief.

brad

10-27-2003, 02:05 PM

noone believes your filthy pr

AmericanAirlines

10-27-2003, 03:31 PM

Yes AndyFox it was. Are you going to say that popular media has not been getting more Afro in the recent decade?

So much so that middle class kids of other races are picking up on Ebonics and Ebonic phrases and spelling.

For example changer "-a" for "-er'? Or "B" for "are" and other short words:

Gangster -> Gangsta
Player -> Playa
Don't Hate -> Don't be Hatin'

The fact is Africanization is happening. African species of anything tend to be invasive by the biologist definition.

And since all places where Africans are the majority are pretty much a mess. This *is* a bad trend.

Those *are* the facts.

If things were going well, the african culture would be becoming more caucasian-like.

What has african culture contributed to anything at all in the way of civilization. Nothing I can think of. They're still a bunch of tribes fighting in Africa. And by extension, so too the Saudi peninsula. To close to the source I'd speculate.

Sincerely,
Frank

AmericanAirlines

10-27-2003, 03:55 PM

You are missing the point about this.

Increasing Africans in media helps to promote the acceptability of African culture in general. Which is a culture of greater crime, greater STD's, etc.

I'll be damned if that's what I want the media glamorizing to any children I know. Even african ones.

It is indicative of a push to mainstream Afro-crapola.

Sincerely,
AA

AmericanAirlines

10-27-2003, 03:57 PM

The point about doctors, bankers et. al. is that these people are intelligent by usual standards.

And yet they can't solve this conflict.

Sincerely,
AA

andyfox

10-27-2003, 04:03 PM

I don't think that's your point at all.

Because some jews are bankers and some arabs are oil barons doesn't make "these people . . . intelligent by usual standards." Because there is more violent crime in black community doesn't make "African" culture one of violence.

Gamblor

10-27-2003, 04:33 PM

You can't deny the higher incidence of crime in predominantly "black" areas, just like you can't deny the higher incidence of Jews in the banking, law, and medical sectors, or the Arab involvement in oil.

Don't forget though, in Israel, there are as many garbagemen and factory workers as anywhere else, and they are all Jewish.

Actually, there are a lot of MBAs there now for some reason...

This obviously begs the question: If it's not a cultural inclination, and I'm perfectly prepared to accept that, then what would account for all of these broad sweeping generalizations? Why is it that people just seem to take a little more notice when a Jew graduates medical school, or an Egyptian oil baron's son goes to school in at Queen's U in Kingston?

elwoodblues

10-27-2003, 04:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
what would account for all of these broad sweeping generalizations

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not conceding that your sweeping generalizations are true...but a possible explanation would be that people tend to follow in the footsteps of their parents. If your parents were bankers/lawyers/doctors you are more likely to be a banker/lawyer/doctor. If your parents were drug dealers, you are probably more likely to be a drug dealer. It's really a vicious cycle (for the children of drug dealers) and the road to an easy life (for the children of doctors/lawyers/presidents).

~elwood

andyfox

10-27-2003, 05:05 PM

I do deny the high incidence of crime in predominantly black areas. There is a higher incidence of violent crime, but not of overall crime. Most blacks are imprisoned for drug violations. Not too many whites are.

Arabs are involved in oil because they live where the oil is. And you know that the "jewish banker" has historically been used to fuel anti-semiticism.

Gamblor

10-27-2003, 05:24 PM

You know those things and I know those things, but someone believes them.

I'm trying to figure out how they started.

What about the generalizations that Jews have big noses, Arabs smell, Blacks are lazy, White people can't dance, Chinese are ruthless, and more of that kind of trash.

Someone came up with this crap. How does it perpetuate?

elwoodblues

10-27-2003, 05:57 PM

It comes because people like to generalize. If you see 5 people who happen to be black and happen to have blue eyes, some people would then make the leap to "black people have blue eyes." Because this is a poker forum, it is the same thing that happens with bad beats...I got 5 bad beats in a row on UB therefore UB has a ton of bad beats.

AmericanAirlines

10-27-2003, 07:21 PM

Well AndyFox,
Despite what you believe, that's what I meant. And I am the author in this case.

Seems to me you simply refuse to believe an facts, such as crime statistics etc. You want to believe in your pie-in-the-sky "we're all the same on the inside" thing.

Perhaps at some level that's true. Like at the brain stem level.

But, would you ever say that Pit Bulls, Collies, and Chihuahuas have the same inherent tempraments?

No experience animal handler would.

So how are "races" of people and "breeds" of dogs any different really?

They aren't.

The the concept that some races have different proclivities from others is not unknown in the animal kingdom.

Sorry dude, you're just wrong. That's all there is too it.

Now ideally, we might should be trying to approach the ideal you think exists. But it seems to me that's not going to happen any time soon.

So for now the idea of separating from those groups that we don't feel akin to should be an acceptable idea. Perhaps even defending ourselves from them.

But ultimately we need to devise a plane for managing that planet that lets each group live in peace. And sadly, that may mean separate places for Jews from Arabs, etc.

Since KurnsofMurno is a Trekkie... I suspect that for man to ascend we'll have to all become like spock or whatnot.

But until *all* groups show a commitment to that, I for one will not buy into *any* single groups plans. And further, as long as various groups show tendency that are factual and not to my liking I will fight you or anyone else to say it's not my right to make whatever judgement and adjustment neccesary to keep these groups imposed on me.

After all, isn't one of the underpinning of America's idealogy that of "individual freedom"? Yet how can that occur where "majority rules"?

It pulls two ways at once and is thus somewhat contradictory.

Sorry AndyFox. There's no argument that you can make that will force me to accept quotas. And there's no argument that you can make to justify wat the people in the mid-east have been doing on either the Jewish nor the Arab side.

Bottom line is that people still have not gotten beyond thier basic animal tendencies, and some groups *are* worse than others.

To bad if you don't like that it falls on racial lines, but it often does.

Heck you're a poker player.... a game where the idea is to make the other guy pay too much to see the cards right? Just like options trading on wall street and even economics as a whole. After all profit represents the seller's excess of cost of production and the buyer over payment. As I've said before... a fair trade is one in which neither side profits. (Of course you don't agree with even that plain and simple truth)

So given that this is the underpinning of your economics and even your favorite game... how can people at the present level of evolution ever get to an ideal earth.

Fact is, they can't.

So if I feel group X is a problem for me, why shouldn't I be allowed to keep them out of my life?

Sincerely,
AA

AmericanAirlines

10-27-2003, 07:23 PM

What, pray tell, is worse than violent crime?

That's all *I* need to say there's a problem with that group.

Sincerely,
AA

AmericanAirlines

10-27-2003, 07:32 PM

Hi Gamblor,
Perhaps it has it roots in simple observation.

Example. I used to work in a transistor factory. I turned out 600 parts a shift (silcon wafers). A black guy came in on the other shift. Used the same machine. Turned the speed down so low he put out 200 parts a shift or less.

While the machine was running slower, he walked around and chatted with the women.

That's at least one case in point.

"Cheap Jews"... well my aunt married one. I can tell you he is. And yet he's a millioniare. The examples are legion with this guy. I have a jewish bud who lives in the Hamptons (of florida not NY). He still runs around and pick crap out of other peoples garbage cans. Yet he has enough money not to work.

I have an Irish bud who drank himself to death. Even after he was on dialysis he continued to sneak Grand Marnier. I'm convinced he killed himself.

And I could go on.

Granted, each person is an individual. But as they say, birds of a feather flock together. (And ironically enough... Opposites attract!)

Sincerely,
AA

AmericanAirlines

10-27-2003, 07:34 PM

This I agree with totally. I've spent years trying to get out of my working class origins. But guess what... the folks whose parents new the ropes got out. And I didn't. Despite busting my proverbial *rse.

It's very easy for wealthy people to pick out my non-upper crust traits.

Sincerely,
AA

AmericanAirlines

10-27-2003, 07:37 PM

Ah.. but sooner or later it will come out.

A jewish bud of mine once accused my of being a "lilly white ass" something or other. To which I replied "kike".

We're still buds and have been for about 2 decades now. But when the the arguments get ugly, the epithets fly.

Heck I even bought him a gun one time when his house got busted into. You don't give a gun to someone you don't trust. But fact is, we do have differences of opinion that run deep.

Sincerely,
AA

Ulysses

10-27-2003, 09:28 PM

Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe you haven't succeeded simply because you're really dumb?

AmericanAirlines

10-27-2003, 10:48 PM

Actually I have. But my LSAT said 85% Percentile. That's out of educated people who took the LSAT. All college educated, all motivated.

My ASVAB said 99.5 Percentile.

Doesn't seem to hold water, if that's the kind of stupid you mean.

Especially since I help many 100's of techies yearly in my work. I'm the guy they call when multi-million dollar computer investments don't work. To bad this kind of work will go to India. It is as we speak.

About the only thing that you could say is that I'm to dumb to go along with the politics and BS of the 99.4% and 84% who are below me in those rankings.

Sticking to ones guns doesn't get any respect these days.

Sucking up seems to be the way.

Sorry if I'm not very good at it.

That's one of the places I see a problem. We've not engineered a society for individualists but rather hoardes of do-boys for the rich. Henry Ford I think can be credited with starting the trend from 95% independant to 95% worker bees.

Can't say it's without it's benefits. But I guess I'm one of those idiots that fell under the spell of "individualism" as perpertrated by the media of my era (the Rock and Roll myth) and expected it would lead to great things.

But, world doesn't really work that way.

The issue with me is that I also paid the dues in "normal" society. Cut my hair, got the education, et. al. and yet... no pot of gold. Feels like a rip off to me.

So yes, I suppose you could say I'm stupid in the sense that I want to violate the principles of life as laid down by Machiavelli. But therein lies another problem.

Everyone sees "The Prince" as the blueprint for success... when in fact it is the blueprint for a screwed up world.

That people would do, and continue to do things that way to each other is at the heart of all the current world's problems.

But there I go being dumb again. Instead of stating things directly, Machiavelli indicates I should tell some nice sounding lies.

Sincerely,
AA

Ulysses

10-28-2003, 12:03 AM

OK, next question.

How do you explain all the children of working class all-American parents who went on to build thriving businesses? In the same vein, how do you explain the successes of children of first generation Asian immigrants who came to the US in the 70s and 80s?

Neither of these groups benefit from either the connections and privileged pedigree that you point to so often, nor do they usually benefit significantly from quotas or other such programs. Yet I can point to countless examples of people from those groups becoming very, very successful. And I can also say that politics and sucking up is not a normal forte of members of either of those groups.

If the reason you haven't succeeded is not because you're dumb, perhaps it's that you don't work hard.

Whatever the reason, I'm sure your attitude is no coincidence.