KTo button - what to do?

[TJD]

Hi all, wonder whether you can help?

Been playing 8 months now in loose, low limit, online games. I play very solidly (boringly?) and am doing OK. Now beginning to try and think more about game and seeing if there are areas where I can improve.

I was in a game yesterday that started loose but had tightened a lot so I was going to leave after this orbit.

UTG folds UTG + 1 limps and all fold to me on the button.

UTG had been entering pots with all sorts of garbage and had not been infected by the tightening at the table. SB and BB had become very tight.

I am looking at KTo.

I decided to raise since I thought there was a very good chance the blinds would fold. HU against a "virtually" random hand with KTo does not seem that bad. Plus; raising, I have found recently, makes hands MUCH easier to play later. It often allows a pot to be won without a fight.

Blinds do fold, limper calls.

Flop is rags, turn and river still keep my K as the top card.

I bet, bet, bet and get called, called called.

Not a happy ending! My opponent turns over A2o to win the pot /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Is my logic, risking 2 SB to win 3.5SB at the preflop stage OK? (If the blinds had called I would have probably been struggling)

Was I right to just pump away post flop.

I would appreciate your views.

Trevor

[GuyOnTilt]

Preflop, this is a good raise. There are very few times where KT is playable, most of them involve raising, and this is one of those times.

Postflop, your decisions are largely opponent-oriented. If he's a calling station who wouldn't fold a heads-up pot with ace high or 2 overcards, then I don't like betting the turn and DEFINITELY not the river. If he's a weak/tight player postflop, then betting is definitely called for. Learning to adjust and make the right reads is tough and takes time.

[Noodles]

GutOnTilt,continuing the theme of folding offsuits in family pots,if there had been 4 or 5 limpers here would you have folded KTo,i see on Slanskys hand rankings that it is fairly low down.
But i think it is a definite raise in this situation.

[GuyOnTilt]

Yes, I would muck KTo in LP after 4 or 5 limpers for sure. As you said, it goes back to the big offsuit in multiway pots thing. KTo is a marginal hand at best, and when put in against 6 opponents, it's a -EV holding. I'd muck QJo and KJo as well in this spot, but I'd probably join the limpfest with KQo and AQo. And if there were ever a time to limp with AKo, this would be it.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
Plus; raising, I have found recently, makes hands MUCH easier to play later. It often allows a pot to be won without a fight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this is an easy raise against 1 loose limper. But after that Im not sure you did the right thing. The good thing about raising preflop is - as you say - that it indicates strenght. If you bet flop there is a better chance that they will fold if they didnt hit. Bluffbetting and winning on flop becomes easier. But that is against reasonable players, not against calling stations.

Now the flop comes all rags. You are against a player who probably thinks: "that flop didnt hit him". You know he is loose and will call you down with almost anything. You try to take it down on flop, he calls.

I would probably not bet turn, but I think its ok to do it, depending on how loose he is, depending on if you think he is on a draw, and depending on if he will try to bluff you with nothing on river if you check turn.

But river bet is wrong. Never ever try to bluff a calling station on river. He will probably fold if he got only Q high. If he calls you on river you are behind 90% of the time.

[Guido]

HiGuyOnTilt,

I would do the same with all hands, except AQo and AKo. I would raise those, why shouldn't I do that? Or why don't you?

Thanks,

Guido

[kiddo]

If players were loose and not to aggressive I would call with these hands in late position. Position is extremly important in loose-passive (or semi-passive) games cause people often go for a checkraise on turn if they flop a good hand, giving you a free card if you bet/raise flop. That is: bad players dont think about there position when they flop a good hand, they slowplay as much from EP as LP.

I dont have my pokertracker here, but I dont think I will make much $ on these hands from late position. But if anobody is noticing my table image, I like them to think Im a bit loose also on later streets and in early position (I like to think Im only loose in unraised pots preflop in loose-passive games, coming in with a lot of drawing hands, also unsuited and specially in LP).

[chesspain]

Some experts like S&M believe that, in a very loose-passive game, you should not raise PF with hands that play poorly in multway pots when you don't think that your PF raise will cut down the field.

However, others believe that raising PF with these hands (especially AKo) can hardly ever be wrong, since you are still a significant favorite with a 37% chance that the flop with give you a K or A, meaning that you should still try to get extra money into the pot. Having a multiway pot does not mean you won't win with TPTK--just that your chances of winning unimproved have decreased.

[Redhotman]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi all, wonder whether you can help?

Been playing 8 months now in loose, low limit, online games. I play very solidly (boringly?) and am doing OK. Now beginning to try and think more about game and seeing if there are areas where I can improve.

I was in a game yesterday that started loose but had tightened a lot so I was going to leave after this orbit.

UTG folds UTG + 1 limps and all fold to me on the button.

UTG had been entering pots with all sorts of garbage and had not been infected by the tightening at the table. SB and BB had become very tight.

I am looking at KTo.

I decided to raise since I thought there was a very good chance the blinds would fold. HU against a "virtually" random hand with KTo does not seem that bad. Plus; raising, I have found recently, makes hands MUCH easier to play later. It often allows a pot to be won without a fight.

Blinds do fold, limper calls.

Flop is rags, turn and river still keep my K as the top card.

I bet, bet, bet and get called, called called.

Not a happy ending! My opponent turns over A2o to win the pot /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Is my logic, risking 2 SB to win 3.5SB at the preflop stage OK? (If the blinds had called I would have probably been struggling)

Was I right to just pump away post flop.

I would appreciate your views.

Trevor



[/ QUOTE ]
I think you tried to bluff someone not capable of folding.

[Redhotman]

I think the decision of raising Ako with several limpers versus limping yourself is dependent on how well you opponents play. By not raising they may call you down to the river with 2nd pair or worse when you hit an Ace or King. By building the pot you have set yourself up for a shoot-out and will likely not be called by second best hands, but rather hands with correct odds, although this may still yield a positive EV.

[rigoletto]

Some experts like S&M believe that, in a very loose-passive game, you should not raise PF with hands that play poorly in multway pots when you don't think that your PF raise will cut down the field.

I see this misinterpretation over and over again. AKo and AQo play very well multiway and should be raised in LP (and often in EP). You win more times with these hands with few players in but you win bigger pots multiway, so they are still very +EV in multiway pots.

[hockey1]

Just last week Sklansky wrote, on this forum, that not raising AK preflop in an unraised pot is a "crime against humanity." (Or some such thing) I don't remember him mentioning any exceptions, caveats, or conditions. Just raise.

[Festus22]

The quote to which you refer was A-Ks in the SB after 5 had limped. And yes, not raising in that situation is a crime although I suspect the majority of humanity really doesn't care. That being said, I admit I'm the limp-king sometimes and even I raise A-Ko at least 90% of the time.

[chesspain]

However, S&M also wrote in the 2nd edition of HEFAP that it might be proper to not raise with AQo, in late position in a very passive game, after five or more limpers.

[TJD]

Looks like I got half of it right /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Spotted he limped with rubbish and that SB and BB had become tight.

Had NOT noticed that limper was a calling station as well!

If I had, I would not have been so aggressive post flop!


Thanks

Trevor

[Mike Gallo]

Tj,

Excellent preflop raise, however you had too much follow through.

You should not question your decision pre-flop to raise. Eventually you will raise in that spot without hesitation.

Against thinking opponents you can walk into the dreaded limp reraise so show some caution.


Post flop: at some point if the flop missed you, you need to realize he will call you all the way down.

Good try next time don't try and buy a pot from a calling station. /images/graemlins/blush.gif